Fix this text
Education
Fix this textJournal of the N.S.W. Teachers’ Federation
Fix this textRegistered at the General Post Office, Sydney, for transmission by post as a newspaper.
Fix this textVol. 41. No. 16.
Fix this textDECEMBER 7, 1960
Fix this textPrice: Threepence
Fix this textSALARIES CASE
Fix this textBEFORE INDUSTRIAL
Fix this textCOMMISSION
Fix this textMore Evidence: Board and Federation
Fix this textHearing of evidence in connection with the reference
Fix this textby the Minister for Labour and Industry concerning
Fix this textsalaries and allowances of teachers was continued during
Fix this textNovember before a Full Bench of the Industrial Com-
Fix this textmission consisting of Mr. Justice Cook, Mr. Justice
Fix this textMcKeon and Mr. Justice Beattie.
Fix this textIn the application the Minister for Labour and Industry asks the
Fix this textCommission to decide whether rates of salaries and allowances at present
Fix this textbeing paid to teachers are just and reasonable, and if not then to fix rates
Fix this textwhich are just and reasonable.
Fix this textMr. Kerr, Q.C., and Mr. Ludeke are appearing for the Public Service
Fix this textBoard; Mr. Sweeney and Mr. Fisher for the Federation.
Fix this textDuring the month evidence was given by Mr. V. J. Truskett, Deputy Director
Fix this textof Primary Education, and Mr. N. M. Johnston, a senior officer of the Education
Fix this textDepartment responsible for administration of school accommodation, including
Fix this textinitial planning, building and maintenance programs; provision, manufacture and
Fix this textmaintenance of school furniture; acquisition and maintenance of school sites; school
Fix this textequipment and school supplies. These witnesses were called by counsel for the
Fix this textPublic Service Board.
Fix this textWitnesses called by counsel for the Federation were Mr. K. J. Andrews, Mr.
Fix this textW. Furnass and Mr. T. E. Hornibrook, Headmasters respectively of the Sydney Boys’
Fix this textHigh School, Manly Boys’ High School and North Sydney Technical High School.
Fix this textLater Mr. W. E. Gollan, Headmaster of Macquarie Boys’ High School, was called by
Fix this textFederation counsel.
Fix this textConditions in Primary Service
Fix this textBefore calling Mr. Truskett, Mr. Ludeke
Fix this textsaid they would be putting, through evi-
Fix this textdence, that the description of the education
Fix this textsystem as being in a state of crisis was an
Fix this textexaggeration.
Fix this textSecondly, they would submit that owing to
Fix this textthe unprecedented increase in the number of
Fix this textschools there had been a large increase, both
Fix this textabsolutely and relatively, in the number of
Fix this textpromotion positions to which teachers might
Fix this textaspire. It would be apparent that there was
Fix this textno validity in the suggestion that the maxi-
Fix this textmum of the incremental scale was the maxi-
Fix this textmum salary to which the majority of two-
Fix this textyears trained teachers might aspire.
Fix this textIt would be apparent that the bulge had
Fix this textin fact gone from the primary schools. The
Fix this textclass sizes would demonstrate that. For
Fix this textexample, it would be shown by means of
Fix this texttables that the mean class size in the pri-
Fix this textmary schools, including infants’ classes, had
Fix this textdropped from 37.4 pupils in 1954 to 36.8
Fix this textpupils in 1959. It would be shown that the
Fix this textproportion of large classes had been de-
Fix this textcreased quite dramatically. In 1954 there
Fix this textwere 4.1 per cent of classes with enrolments
Fix this textover 50. and in 1959 classes with enrolments
Fix this textover 50 were only 2 per cent.
Fix this textThe C List and Promotion
Fix this text(Mr. Truskett cross-examined by Mr. Sweeney)
Fix this textMr. SWEENEY: You agree, I think, that
Fix this textyou can have quite efficient, fully efficient
Fix this textclassroom teachers who will never make the
Fix this textB or C list?—That is true.
Fix this textAnd who will begin and end their careers
Fix this textas classroom teachers?—That is so.
Fix this textIn their efficiency as classroom teachers,
Fix this textthey show efficiency both in teaching itself,
Fix this textin what was called the “extraneous work” of
Fix this textteachers, efficiency in relations with the
Fix this texto°r ra an U nf t y hp an Th Se °
Fix this textencv in 7 dls P la y
Fix this textAU tw £ th ' { v i f f j f •
Fix this textffir inrv Ilf i T 1° ermme
Fix this textAndThPn Cla Y° om te . acher? - Y f-
Fix this textwiD it nn iJih £7 S ° me ° f them
Fix this textSnm f th K C ISt? True * . „..
Fix this textwibTak ir "d i g ° ° n -? thC £
Fix this textlistf-Yes g pnonty m the C
Fix this textOf those who do not reach priority, only
Fix this texta small proportion can expect appointment
Fix this textto promotion positions?-That is true.
Fix this textAnd those promotion positions are the
Fix this textleast desirable of those available?-That is
Fix this texttrue.
Fix this textThen, of the C Pst only a proportion will
Fix this textreach the B list?— Yes.
Fix this textA quite small proportion of the teachers
Fix this textwill ultimately reach the A list?—Yes.
Fix this textFrom the age at which men enter the list,
Fix this textit would appear that in order to reach one
Fix this textof the A promotion positions, a man would
Fix this textneed to get his first position on the C list
Fix this textrelatively early in his teaching career. Would
Fix this textyou agree with that?—On these figures it
Fix this texthas taken approximately 27 to 28 years to
Fix this textget on to the A list.
Fix this textUnless he gets an early promotion to the
Fix this textC list it is unlikely that he will make the
Fix this textA list?—l would not like to say that, in all
Fix this textcases. I remember one man getting his first-
Fix this textclass school at the age of 62.
Fix this textWhat I was putting to you was this; that
Fix this textunless a man gets at least on to the C list
Fix this textwithin say nine years of commencing his
Fix this textservice, he has little or no possibility of
Fix this textreaching an A position? —I would say that is
Fix this textreasonable. We would expect the people to
Fix this textget onto the C list before or about say the
Fix this text1 0th year-the 9th or the 10th year—before
Fix this textthey could expect to go through the Service.
Fix this textIt seems to be the position that the aver-
Fix this textage age of entry to the C list is dropping?—
Fix this textYes.
Fix this textWhat I am seeking to put to you is this:
Fix this textthat a greater proportion of the men enter-
Fix this texting the C list at an earlier age, the promo-
Fix this texttion prospects of men entering the C list
Fix this textat a relatively later age are becoming less
Fix this textand less?—l would say that that is merely
Fix this texta statistical matter; that must happen.
Fix this textDo you agree that it is happening?—l agree
Fix this textthat those people who are not getting on at
Fix this textthe earlier age have got less chance of get-
Fix this textting on to promotion at a later age.
Fix this textLess chance of getting on the list and less
Fix this textchance of getting promotion 'from the list
Fix this textat a later age?—l think that is so.
Fix this textClassloads in Primary Schools
Fix this textMr SWEENEY: You say, "At this stage of
Fix this textour educational development the aim is that
Fix this textall normal infants and primary classes should
Fix this textnot exceed 40 pupils”.—That is true.
Fix this textDoes that mean that is the express aim of
Fix this textthe Department?—lt is the aim of the Direc-
Fix this texttor and the staff. _
Fix this textt hat is a matter of policy?—Yes.
Fix this text. ' Ahen was that policy adooted—that par-
Fix this textticular aim?—l don’t know the exact point
Fix this textof time, but that has been considered opinion
Fix this textfor some little time.
Fix this text‘ For some little time”?—T don’t know the
Fix this textexact time at which it was decided. I dis-
Fix this textcussed this matter fully with the Director,
Fix this textand he has agreed with me that that is a
Fix this textfair statement of the position and of his
Fix this textpolicy as Director.
Fix this textWas that aim adopted—was that aim in
Fix this textexistence when you took vour present posi-
Fix this texttion?—l think it has Ipeen in existence for
Fix this textsome time; we thought in terms of aiming
Fix this textat that particu’ar target in classes. I have
Fix this textfelt that way about it—l do now, and I have
Fix this textELECTRONIC AGE SCHOOL BUS
Fix this textThis imaginative model designed by the engineers of one of America’s largest
Fix this textschool bus manufacturers floats on a cushion of air; its electric motors draw energy
Fix this textfrom the natural radiation of the air; it is protected from head-on collisions by
Fix this textradar; a device on the instrument panel automatically notes the distance required
Fix this textto stop the bus; the air is purified and germ-free; the heating is from solar energy;
Fix this textthere is two-way contact by radio which supplies educational programs en-route
Fix this textand, as a deterrent to last-minute loafing, every home on the route is automatically
Fix this textradio-signalled five minutes before the bus arrives.—From “The Kansas Teacher.”
Fix this textfor some little time. I could not give you
Fix this texta point of time for it.
Fix this textThe former Minister said in December
Fix this textlast: “We shall never consider we have
Fix this textenough teachers until we get classloads down
Fix this textto 35 or even as low as 30". Isn’t that the
Fix this textaim?—Ministerial policy. I think you could
Fix this textread what I have said there again, and I
Fix this textthink that is significant.
Fix this text“At this stage of our educational develop-
Fix this textment the aim is that all normal infants and
Fix this textprimary classes should not exceed 40
Fix this textpupils”?—l don’t think that is inconsistent
Fix this textwith what has been said in that general
Fix this textstatement.
Fix this textOne seems to me to say that normal
Fix this textclasses should not exceed 40, the other, they
Fix this textshould not exceed 35 or even 30—
Fix this textMr. JUSTICE COOK: You have quoted
Fix this textfrom something, a statement which may be
Fix this textan extract from lengthy matter. Would you
Fix this textindicate the source of the statement?
Fix this textMr. SWEENEY: I am quoting from a
Fix this textstatement made by Mr. Heffron in Parlia-
Fix this textment in December last.
Fix this textI understand what you said was that you
Fix this textsaw no inconsistency between your state-
Fix this textment of the aim and what I put to you
Fix this textwas what the Minister has said?—l under-
Fix this textstood from what you put to me the Minis-
Fix this textter mentioned a figure of 35.
Fix this text“We shall never consider that we have
Fix this textenough teachers until we get classloads
Fix this textdown to 35 or even as low as 30”?—I have no
Fix this textcomment to make on that, I am afraid. My
Fix this textopinion at this stage is that if we can get
Fix this textclasses to 40, an optimum of 40, it would be
Fix this textreasonable.
Fix this textThat is not what I am asking. I am ask-
Fix this texting you if, in the light of that, you say that
Fix this textthe aim of the Department is that all nor-
Fix this textmal infants and primary classes should not
Fix this textexceed 40?—In the present circumstances,
Fix this textthat is the aim of the Department.
Fix this textBy “present circumstances” you mean
Fix this textwhat?—Conditions as they are at the pre-
Fix this textsent moment. That is what we conceive as
Fix this texta reasonable aim at the moment.
Fix this textIt is certainly not an optimum position?—
Fix this textNot an optimum position at the moment; I
Fix this texthave not claimed that.
Fix this textThe aim—?—The aim is not an optimum.
Fix this textIt would not be an entirely satisfactory
Fix this textposition if the best that was achieved was
Fix this textthat classes did not exceed 40. Do you agree
Fix this textwith that?—l can’t agree with that altogether,
Fix this textI am afraid. I am just saying that I feel
Fix this textthat that classload at this time —that opti-
Fix this textmum—is a reasonable one.
Fix this text“At this time” means having regard to the
Fix this textvast increase in pupils and the numbers of
Fix this textteachers and classrooms available?—Having
Fix this textregard to the present position in the Depart-
Fix this textment.
Fix this textBut having regard primarily to those
Fix this textthree matters?—lt would concern all those
Fix this textfactors.
Fix this textWithout the complicating factor of the
Fix this textvast influx of pupils, the numbers of teach-
Fix this texters available and all those other factors?—
Fix this textIf I had a personal choice, it would be
Fix this textaround the position of between 35 and 40.
Fix this textlam not a believer in big classes, but I
Fix this texthave got to say this to you; There has been
Fix this textno conclusive evidence produced that a
Fix this textclass of 30, 35 or 40 is a better teaching
Fix this textunit. That is all I can say.
Fix this textBut there is general agreement to which
Fix this textyou subscribe that, say, a pupil-teacher ratio
Fix this textof around about the 32 mark, and all that
Fix this textinvolves, is unsatisfactory?—l have subscribed
Fix this textto the fact that a pupil-teacher ratio of 32
Fix this textis unsatisfactory?
Fix this textYes, haven’t you?—l was not aware that
Fix this textI had subscribed to the fact it was unsatis-
Fix this textfactory; I thought I had mentioned that
Fix this textwas the position.
Fix this textYour view then is that a pupil-teacher
Fix this textratio of about 32 and the classloads it in-
Fix this textvolves is satisfactory? —I don’t know whether
Fix this textI have expressed an opinion on that.
Fix this textWould you just tell me your opinion now,
Fix this textputting to one side whether you had ex-
Fix this textpressed an opinion before or not?—l think
Fix this textwe would hope to reduce that to the figure
Fix this textthat was indicated in Mr. Verco’s evidence.
Fix this textWould you regard a pupil-teacher ratio at
Fix this textthe present time of 32, in primary schools,
Fix this textas satisfactory?—No, I would hope to improve
Fix this textit, as I said.
Fix this textHow Large Should Classes Be?
Fix this textYour view, I take it, as expressed here
Fix this textseemed to be that classes ranging from the
Fix this texthigh 30’s to the low 40’s don’t impose an
Fix this textunreasonable burden on the teacher and are
Fix this textsatisfactory from the point of view of the
Fix this textpupil?—That is the opinion I have expressed.
Fix this textThat is your opinion?—That is my opinion.
Fix this textI think this morning you said that you
Fix this textknew of no evidence that they had any
Fix this textadverse effect educationally?—Yes, that is
Fix this texttrue.
Fix this textWhat do you mean by “educationally" in
Fix this textthat context?—That there is no evidence we
Fix this texthave been able to adduce, not only from
Fix this textexperience but also, from research, so far as
Fix this textwe have been able to find out, to show
Fix this textthat there is an optimum, a declared opti-
Fix this textmum above which sound education cannot
Fix this textbe given.
Fix this textThere is quite a host of opinions by edu-
Fix this textcational experts on the matter, is there not?
Fix this text—Yes, but there is only one piece of re-
Fix this textsearch which covers a wide field that I am
Fix this textaware of.
Fix this textThat is the document which was tendered
Fix this textin Dr. Verco’s evidence?—Yes; there have
Fix this textbeen other opinions expressed.
Fix this textBy highly qualified men in the education-
Fix this textal field?—l would say so, yes.
Fix this textWould you agree that the great bulk of
Fix this textopinion among the experts is that classes
Fix this textof 40 are too large?—l don’t think I could
Fix this textagree to that, from my own reading and
Fix this textexperience.
Fix this textYou have come across quite a number of
Fix this textopinions expressing that viewpoint?—l have
Fix this textcome across some opinions; I could not list
Fix this textthem at the moment at all.
Fix this textFor example there is, in this State, Dr.
Fix this textMcßae?—l know Dr. Mcßae.
Fix this textDo you know he has expressed that opin-
Fix this textion?—l don’t know the exact nature of his
Fix this textopinion.
Fix this textDr. Mcßae was the Principal of Sydney
Fix this textTeachers’ College, was he not?—At one time,
Fix this textyes.
Fix this textAnd also Professor, I think, of Education
Fix this textat Sydney University?—Yes.
Fix this textYou have said in your evidence you have
Fix this textseen no evidence that classloads have altered,
Fix this textor dass sizes have altered since, I think,
Fix this text1925?—That is in my final statement; I
Fix this textthink I said that.
Fix this textDid you take out figures for 1925?—N0. I
Fix this textam only remembering the classes that I had
Fix this textin those days. I could not swear to that
Fix this textover the whole period, but most of the
Fix this textclasses I have been responsible for as a
Fix this textprimary teacher were in the vicinity of 40,
Fix this text42, 43. That is the reason I made that
Fix this textstatement; there has not been any great
Fix this textalteration. That is all I mean—l have no
Fix this textstatistical information.
Fix this textThere are one or two other experts whose
Fix this textopinions I might put to you. There is a
Fix this text(Continued on page 8)
Fix this textALL MEMBERS INVITED
Fix this textTO ATTEND OFFICIAL
Fix this textOPENING OF
Fix this textANNUAL CONFERENCE
Fix this textAll members are invited
Fix this textto be present at the official
Fix this textopening session of Annual
Fix this textConference at the Assembly
Fix this textHall, Margaret Street, Syd-
Fix this textney, on Monday afternoon,
Fix this textDecember 19, at 2.30. The
Fix this textsession will be addressed by
Fix this textthe Minister for Education,
Fix this textMr. Wetherell, the Federa-
Fix this texttion President, Mr. D. A.
Fix this textTaylor, and the Director-
Fix this textGeneral of Education, Dr.
Fix this textWyndham.
Fix this textIt's easy and takes two shakes of a lamb's tail!
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-680977881
N.S.W. Teachers' Federation & New South Wales Public School Teachers' Federation. (1919). Education : journal of the N.S.W. Public School Teachers Federation Retrieved July 18, 2025, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-680977881
N.S.W. Teachers' Federation and New South Wales Public School Teachers' Federation. Education : journal of the N.S.W. Public School Teachers Federation Sydney: The Federation, 1919. Web. 18 July 2025 <http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-680977881>
N.S.W. Teachers' Federation & New South Wales Public School Teachers' Federation. 1919, Education : journal of the N.S.W. Public School Teachers Federation The Federation, Sydney viewed 18 July 2025 http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-680977881
{{Citation
| author1=N.S.W. Teachers' Federation.
| author2=New South Wales Public School Teachers' Federation.
| title=Education : journal of the N.S.W. Public School Teachers Federation.
| year=1919
| section=volumes.
| issn=0013-1156
| issue=Vol. 41 No. 16 (7 Dec 1960)
| location=Sydney
| publisher=The Federation
| url=http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-680977881
| id=nla.obj-680977881
| access-date=18 July 2025
| via=Trove
}}
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