--------------------------------------------------------------- ._________. ||||||||| NATIONAL LIBRARY Oral History Transcripts IIIIIIIII OF AUSTRALIA /=========\ --------------------------------------------------------------- Title: Adam Kriegel interviewed by Barbara Blackman [sound recording]. Date Issued: 22 July 1988 Summary: Kriegel, a violinist and artist, talks about his family background; early childhood memories of Russia and wartime; schooling in Poland; memories of Warsaw and music and art lessons. He then talks about his experiences during WWII and "hiding" with false identity papers. Kriegel then discusses his interest in Australia from 1938 and coming here in 1947 or 1948 with the help of Prof. Bernard Heinz who found him work at the Conservatorium in Melbourne. He then talks about the muscial scene in Melbourne at the time; his concerts and his impressions of Bernard Heinz. Kriegel then discusses his art career and some highlights while in Adelaide, including his 1st exhibition; interest in painting events from the French Revolution and his method of work. Restrictions: Access open for research, personal copies and public use. Location: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-200337136 There is no summary of this transcript available. Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:21 Barbara Blackman: Tape one, side one. Barbara Blackman for Australian National Library Oral History Program ah, talking with violinist, painter Adam Kriegel in Melbourne on, Adam Kriegel: I ah … Barbara Blackman: on July 22, 1988. Um, this recording is being made at his residence/studio at 19 Irymple Street, East Malvern. Ah, Mr, Mr Kriegel, on behalf of the Director-General of National Library I want to thank you for making your time and thoughts available for us to record this interview and the tapes that we make will have their copyright shared between you and National Library and on that same basis, will you give us permission to make a typescript of this interview at some future time? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: And the, that will then be in the form of two hardback copies. One to be placed in the Australian Studies section at National Library and one will come to you and at that time you can make any additions or deletions or corrections or amplifications that you might wish. Now let's begin. Um, your full name? Adam Kriegel: Adam Kriegel. Barbara Blackman: Ah, and your date and place of birth? Adam Kriegel: I was born in Poland in Bialystok in 1912. Barbara Blackman: Your date of birth? Adam Kriegel: Seventh of December. Barbara Blackman: Ah and when did you come to Australia? Adam Kriegel: In '48, 1948. Barbara Blackman: So more than half of your life has been in Australia? Adam Kriegel: Ah, well, yes. Barbara Blackman: Well … Adam Kriegel: Ah, excuse me just a second. It is a point of contention. Sometimes some, some ah, publicity says I have, I came '48 and others say '47. So I don't have, I have no remember of that. Barbara Blackman: Oh well that, that's ah, pretty close. Um, would you like to tell me a little bit about your family and your childhood and your beginnings there? Adam Kriegel: Ah, Barbara Blackman: In Poland. Adam Kriegel: well ah, well as I said, I was born in 19-, end of 1912 so that was before the First World War. At the outbreak of the war well—I was still a baby of course—my parents ah, went a little to Russia. To Russia. By the way the, the, the town where I was born is not far from the frontier of Russia. So I went to Russia to, for three years with then my parents and during that duration and that's where we were to fight for the Russian Revolution. 1917. Barbara Blackman: You would have been very young. Do you, you remember anything of that? Or you remember it from your parents? Adam Kriegel: I, yes, I, I remember a little bit. I remember mostly sort of objects. For example, I remember the shelters were made of some ah, that metal. And they had little holes in them to, to, to, to have a little light. And I remember how ah, as a child I was looking through one of the holes and I saw a man up at the side of the street ah, aiming at our house with a rifle and then ah, whether he shot or not, I don't, I don't remember. But this, this, this is … then I remember that I was always building myself shelters. For example ah, we lived in a big place, in a big sort of, like a warehouse Barbara Blackman: Yes, talk. Adam Kriegel: and, and there, there were sort of barrels and boxes so ah, and so I, and I had plenty of material to build myself some shelters. Like where I, where I spent a lot of time. That's all. That's about, about all I remember. Barbara Blackman: Did you have sisters and brothers? Adam Kriegel: I had a brother only. Barbara Blackman: And what sort of work did your father do? Adam Kriegel: My father had a, he was a businessman but ah, I, I remember that [indecipherable]. I was taken to visit the shop where they, where he had some materials ah, textiles. Ah that's about, ver-, very uncertain sort of image, but I remembered that. Barbara Blackman: And your first language was Polish? Adam Kriegel: No. No. Because at that time the town Bialystok belongs to Russia and my first language was Russian. This is the, this is the main ah, language which was talk-, spoken at our house. We also spoke Jewish because we are Jewish. But ah, that I, I knew less Jewish than I knew for, that I knew Russian. Naturally two years after coming back from Russia, in 1920, we returned to Bialystok and shortly after that a war took place between Russia and Poland and as you know for General Pilsudski established the Polish state and from then the, the town where I was born became Polish and I had to learn Polish. Barbara Blackman: Did you go to school in Russia for a short time? Adam Kriegel: Very short time, yes. Very short time. I … Barbara Blackman: You can remember that? Adam Kriegel: I remember ah, very vaguely that I had to relate some stories, talk about some stories in Russia. That's about, about all I remember because it lasted you know few weeks, weeks. And after that I went to Polish school. Ah, in Poland, in Poland, in, in Bialystok particularly, they had, they, they had two state schools. One was so-called mathemat-, mathematics ah, physics, chemistry. All those objects. And then there were humanities schools: history, languages and so on. And I was then started in one of the schools, particularly the one was a mathematical school. Barbara Blackman: And what age did you make this um, was this Adam Kriegel: Ten. Barbara Blackman: decision made? Adam Kriegel: I must have been ah, oh, well eight, nine. Barbara Blackman: So it, it was at primary level that um … Adam Kriegel: No, it's not primary. No. Secondary level. Secondary level was … Barbara Blackman: Secondary level? You, this school was chosen? Adam Kriegel: This was secondary school, yes. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. So this was the choice of your father to take the mathematics/science route? Adam Kriegel: Well it was not so much choice as it was necessary because as you know, it was ah, in Poland a so-called, so-called numerous kurzes. That is that other nationalities were accepted, they called these a certain [indecipherable]. and in this class you had ah, four, five children that were not Polish. They were Jewish, Ukrainian, Russian and so in that particular school I had, I was accepted and therefore I went to it. In spite of the fact that I had no aptitude for mathematics or chemistry or anything like that. Barbara Blackman: And, but you were speaking, of course, Polish at, at this school? It was a Polish-speaking school? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Yes, yes. Barbara Blackman: Can you remember much about that Russia-Polish war? Um, during … Adam Kriegel: Yes, I have, I remember. It lasted, I can't remember how long but probably a couple of weeks. Ah, we were going often over the road to, to a big place where we hid ourselves in a basement because the place was constantly under bombardment. And that's all I remember, of course. I also remember scenes of atrocities. And prisoners ah, go, come back to their execution and maltreated and so on. Of course, there were … Barbara Blackman: You saw these prisoners coming back? Adam Kriegel: Yes. As, as coming back. Dreadful. I didn't see them come back. And ah, in those days a war, particularly war between Russian and Polish not very technological-minded ah, people. They were very, very gruesome. With sabres, with sticks, with, with hammers, with all sorts. Barbara Blackman: Was it frightening? Was it a very frightening time for you? Adam Kriegel: That what they were fighting about, I can't say. I can't remember much. Barbara Blackman: And what about your ah, parents? What sort of um, what do you remember of their activity at that time? Adam Kriegel: Ha. Well I, I only remember that after coming from [indecipherable]. that is, that is where the parents say my grandparents lived. After coming back to Bialystok we learnt that a, a little house, a little, a half-house and the other half occupies by the owner. The owner had a factory of oil. Ah, oil which was a bit illegal, you know. And he and his son constantly battled between ourselves and that has, remember how this was terrible to hear this sort of noises coming through the house, from the outside of the building. Of, it was a wooden house actually. Barbara Blackman: How big was this town? Could you get to the country? Adam Kriegel: Oh yes. I had a lot of boy friends from the country and ah, the size was more or less 100,000. Not a hun-, ah, it was as I say, hundred thousand. Yes, about 100,000. Barbara Blackman: And did you have grandparents? Adam Kriegel: Yes, but I just don't remember much about. I, I only remember that we, we ate a lot of ice-cream because my grand-, grand sort of, grand ah, father had a shop with sweets and us children, we ate a lot of the sweets but particularly ice-cream because ah, ice-cream was made in those days at, by hand. And some of these things was melted and we, as children who haven't had a big time to, to finish that ice-cream. Barbara Blackman: And um, what do you remember about um, the sort of celebrations you had at um, at, at your celebration times? Were there … Adam Kriegel: No, nothing. I don't remember Barbara Blackman: Nothing? Adam Kriegel: any celebration. Barbara Blackman: What about going … Adam Kriegel: But don't forget that it was ah, not only wartime but it was a revolution time. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: And we were very, very much afraid of, of everything and we were [indecipherable]. Barbara Blackman: Yes, but I thought you might have, nevertheless um, gathered somehow for celebrations. Adam Kriegel: No, no. Well I don't remember that. Barbara Blackman: So you feel that your young life there was very much restricted and … Adam Kriegel: Well I didn't have consciousness of it because I didn't know. Ah, it was, it was ah, a life of a child which is ah, always normal, isn't it? Barbara Blackman: Did you have ah, books and paintings and music in your house? Adam Kriegel: Yes, that was later. Ah, actually my uncle or my two uncles ah, well we called them uncles but they are brothers of my young, your mother. Do you understand? As in I was, was other then to me. And they were really, they had, they have a lot of … and somehow we inherited these books. And Rus-, all Russian books we had ah and, and I spent a lot of time just reading those books. They were some serious, some child books. Barbara Blackman: What, what books do you remember especially? Adam Kriegel: Especially I remember a book about the life in southern Russia. You know, not even Russia but those people like ah, the Tatars and the [indecipherable]. and all sorts of players. Ah, the times, semi-savage in the Caucasus. You know, the, the ah, the, the mountains that separate Europe from Asia. And that I remember about that a young girl who was called Kseniya Javaka. That was her name in the book. And how she, were all her ah, histories. Very interesting. Very … I, I would enjoy reading it again as a matter of fact. Barbara Blackman: Um and you kept up synagogue? You went reg-, … Adam Kriegel: No. Were not ah, religious, very religious. You know, sort of in, in the common sense and our, so there's very little interest in that. Barbara Blackman: Did you um, have music in the house? Did people play music in the house? Adam Kriegel: Yeah, well yes and no. My father played a little bit but he likes very much music and this is why he decided to make out of me a famous violinist. Barbara Blackman: Well when you were young, where did you hear music? Um, did people come and give performances or concerts that you were taken to? Or … Adam Kriegel: That was after I returned to Bialystok. And I remember ah, some concerts people used to come there to give concerts. One of these people was Bronislav Gimpel—a very famous American violinist. Ah, that is afterwards he became. And strangely enough ah, in '71 or '72, when we made our first trip to Europe, I met this man. And … Barbara Blackman: I didn't catch the name. Adam Kriegel: Gimpel. Barbara Blackman: Oh, Gimpel? M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Yes, Gimpel. And we became very ah, intimate and very friendly and so on. But this is an interesting occasion. When he played then on the violin, of course I was still a child and I didn't know anything about violin, just, just was so ah, impressed me so terribly much that probably was instrumental in my later life. Barbara Blackman: What about um, people dancing and ah, just the people? Ah … Adam Kriegel: Dancing? Barbara Blackman: Dan-, you know, you know, wa-, was there a lot of um, sort of dancing and um, parties? Anything that you remember like that from … Adam Kriegel: Oh yes, I remember parties. For example ah, on some occasions we gathered together our whole family and we had cakes and sweets and so on. But of course I was still very young for participating in parties properly, you know. Dancing. Barbara Blackman: But you would have watched it? Adam Kriegel: Well, yes but I don't remember much. Barbara Blackman: So um, then you did your high school, your secondary school there? Adam Kriegel: Yes. And Barbara Blackman: And … Adam Kriegel: when I reached my sixth year, in Poland you had eight years secondary school and then mature-, ah, maturity, you know? And so when I reached my sixth, well yes, year, I must have been about fifteen or sixteen and the local teacher of violin which gave me lessons ah, this, this was not very great musician and my parents—particularly my father—decided to, to transfer me to Warsaw where I ah, was, was admitted to the same type of school and at the same time to the Conservatorium. Barbara Blackman: At what age did you begin to learn the violin? Adam Kriegel: At nine. Barbara Blackman: So then um, at fifteen/sixteen you went to Warsaw? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Ah, where did you live? Adam Kriegel: I, I lived with, I actually boarded with parents but I don't remember their names. Barbara Blackman: And, and you went to the Conservatorium. With whom did you study there? Adam Kriegel: With a man called Kochanski. Barbara Blackman: Now tell me ah, what you found in the life of Warsaw because you must have been then um, have access to more concerts and a wider view of the world. Adam Kriegel: Oh yes, of course. Of course. Yes. Warsaw was a big town. A big and most certainly city. Ah and I spent several years in Warsaw. Barbara Blackman: How do you remember Warsaw then? Adam Kriegel: Oh well, a big city, as I say, full of life and concerts, a lot of course. And being a pupil of the Conservatorium I, I could sometimes have access to concerts which were otherwise too expensive for me. And generally speaking, it was a very interesting life. Barbara Blackman: Do you remember some of the performers you heard there? Adam Kriegel: Oh yes. I remember Szigeti, Milstein. Ah, Cortot, Cortot, you know. Alfred Cortot. And so very interesting. Ah, it wasn't ah, I remember quite a few of them. Barbara Blackman: And what other aspect of city life did you participate in? Did you become a wild young man? Or were you a very studious young man? Adam Kriegel: Ha. I don't know. I suppose both. Wild and studious. No, not wild. No. Barbara Blackman: Well um, women, wine and song. Did you um … Adam Kriegel: No, not, not that sort of lifestyle. Barbara Blackman: So … Adam Kriegel: I simply couldn't afford it. I was very poor. My parents were very poor, you know. Because life in Poland was not ah, very plentiful. Barbara Blackman: Did you get a scholarship to the Conservatorium? Or your parents paid for you? Adam Kriegel: Ah, no, the Conservatorium was free of charge but later when, from Warsaw I went to Brussels—Brussels in Belgium—to, to sort of perfect myself so to say ah, I got a, a small scholarship from the government. Barbara Blackman: And at what age do you think you decided that the violin was to be your career? Adam Kriegel: Well now this is impossible to say when but even at an early age ah, I was, my, my teacher was very ambitious—my Warsaw teacher, Kochanski—was very ambitious and he made me play such difficult musics ah, music. Ah, that perhaps at that time at, at maybe the age of sixteen or seventeen, that I became really, really involved in music. Barbara Blackman: And what, what age were you when you went to Brussels? Adam Kriegel: I must have been about twenty. Or nineteen or twenty. Event: Coughs Barbara Blackman: So this was 1932? Adam Kriegel: Ah no, so later than that. Later than that. Barbara Blackman: Later? Well this was time when um, you know, Hitler was really getting into his stride in Germany, wasn't it? Adam Kriegel: In '33 he became chancellor but ah, but I didn't hear much about Hitler. Barbara Blackman: Didn't you? Adam Kriegel: No. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Well, I was very apolitical so to say. And I was not interested much what was going on around me except that I was interested in violin, in my violin. Barbara Blackman: Who was your teacher in Belgium? Adam Kriegel: Ka-, ah, a man called Crickboom. Crickboom. Crickboom. Mathieu Crickboom was a pupil of Ysaye—famous of ah, Belgian violinist. And he was very different from my teacher in Warsaw. He was a strict disciplinarian and ah, he taught me a lot but, but, but it was not the sort of teacher that I would choose if I would understand it more, you know. Barbara Blackman: And you were maturing. Was your outlook on life um, changing? Were you having wider experiences in other areas? Adam Kriegel: Well yes. In Brussels I also went o concerts, painted. I've also painted, painted all my life. Barbara Blackman: So you, you started painting then or Adam Kriegel: Ah … Barbara Blackman: you'd been painting in Poland? Adam Kriegel: As I say, I started in Poland and I've painted always. And mostly copies, you know. I re-, made copies of pictures and … Barbara Blackman: Was this, were you having art training in Poland? Or you were just painting um, yourself? Adam Kriegel: Well this is a debatable question that you should learn or not. Ah, whilst in Poland when I went to, to the school, I happened to have a very good art teacher. His name was Zapphauer. and I still remember how under the influence of this man I got rid of this sort of finicky ah, finicky way of ah … well … Barbara Blackman: Fussiness? We'd say fussiness. Adam Kriegel: Fussiness. Ah, painting leaves and flowers and, and so on. And as, to this day I find that even at present, present, my work is influenced by this original man, you know. Is very … he, I don't know if he was an, an artist himself or not. At that time of course I was not very interested in, in him. But it is that time that I became more and more aware that that original impulse that he gave me was very instru-, very good for me. Barbara Blackman: And during the time where you were in Warsaw, were you painting or going to classes? Adam Kriegel: Yes. I, I always painted. Always painted. Barbara Blackman: Always. Adam Kriegel: And people usually took offence at my pictures. Barbara Blackman: Why? Adam Kriegel: Because when I painted a portrait, I used to show ah, the sitter, not in a beautiful light, you know? And they, and, and they took offence at that. And never became fond of that picture you see. So that as a painter, I am very unpopular. Barbara Blackman: And you, you were painting in oils at that time? Oil painting. Adam Kriegel: Oils. Yes, oils. But mainly watercolours on paper. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Charcoal, crayon, all sorts of … Barbara Blackman: Did you sell any of your pictures? Adam Kriegel: Well ha, no. I, I didn't sell, I didn't sell any. It was not sellable. Barbara Blackman: Ah, so then when you went to um … wait a minute. Let me go back. Ah, you would have seen um, great paintings in Warsaw at the galleries? Adam Kriegel: Yes, I did. I did. But of course I had my influences and then I lived in Bialystok. Barbara Blackman: Yes but when you were younger. But then in um, Brussels, again you um, enlarged your art experience? You went to more galleries and … Adam Kriegel: Yes. I did. Barbara Blackman: And you did copies? You said you … Adam Kriegel: I did copies, yes, yes. A lot of copies. But also a lot of portraits, mind you. Barbara Blackman: And whose work were you copying mainly? Who were you studying? Adam Kriegel: I don't know. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: I just ah, was unaware that of, of, of the great names. But ah, of course I, I began to speak about early influences, you know, in Bialystok because they are, I realise now that they are really ah, very important to this, this early influences. Not later. But early. And I still remember a young man, although he was older than I was ah, who was a wonderful artist in Bialystok and he mainly concentrated on engravings, etchings, lithographs and that sort of type. And you know, the German expressionist between the two worlds ah, very ah, very, not depressing but, well, people who lost their limbs, walking in the street and others walking with their limbs intact and so on. Do you understand me? And this, this sort of influenced me immensely. Immensely, I must say. I do not what has become of him. I don't even remember his name. But this fellow had a great influence on me. Of course, later on when I became older I realised the necessity of learning the craft, you know. Ah, we—my wife and I—went to two times to Europe and visited all the museums and I took notes and I still have the books of, to which I refer sometimes. And, and that was my apprenticeship. I never, I, I did go to school but only sporadically ah, in Sydney, in Melbourne, in Brussels. But I am, so to say, a self-taught man. I learned from my friends, from, from my colleagues and above all, I learned from visiting and studying at the, at the great, the great artists. Barbara Blackman: So how long were you in Brussels? Adam Kriegel: In Brussels, I was 12 years. Barbara Blackman: Twelve years? Adam Kriegel: Well, yes. You see when I finished in Brussels to learn music and that, a couple of years only, the war broke out And I Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: became a sort of ah, quite apart of the fact that I never returned to Poland because ah, after finishing my studies I wanted to get some sort of job ah, as teaching or [indecipherable]. or something in Poland but being a Jew, Jewish, meant I was unable to get anything so I stayed in, in Brussels. Barbara Blackman: When did you start to feel ah, restrictions put upon you because you were Jewish? Adam Kriegel: Never. I never felt any restriction whatsoever because during the war of course I was belonging to the persecutors but I lived as if nothing has happened. Barbara Blackman: How could you do that? Adam Kriegel: Ah, well I had more than one lodgement and that means shelter giving … for myself in a garage. Ah, I don't how I, I have first of all a false ident-, identity. Barbara Blackman: You had false papers? Adam Kriegel: False papers. Yes. Which were given to me by some friends. And ah, I was called Gabrielle Dehut. Gabrielle Dehut. That was my name. Barbara Blackman: How do you spell it? Adam Kriegel: Gabrielle. Barbara Blackman: Yes, I can spell that. The other … Adam Kriegel: Double L-e, there. And Dehut is D-e-h-u-t. Dehut. And I went so far, he was, he, he was some Belgian who disappeared, is no more. Probably killed. And … Barbara Blackman: So you took over his identity? Adam Kriegel: Identity. He was married. He had two children. Two girls. And I went as far as, and they lived in a place called Kuchel. Kuchel. A little town in Belgium. Of course Belgium is so small that you can get anywhere in just an hour two or three, maximum. And so I went so far as to find out, to meet his wife, to find his children, to sort of show her what's, what's happening, you see. I never found them. Barbara Blackman: And what was it like meeting them? Adam Kriegel: Pardon? Barbara Blackman: What was it like when you met this woman and children? Adam Kriegel: Never, I have never, never met her. Barbara Blackman: You never met them? Adam Kriegel: Never. No, don't know what happened to them. Barbara Blackman: I see. Yes. Who arranged this for you? Adam Kriegel: Who? Barbara Blackman: Who arranged this? Adam Kriegel: What? Barbara Blackman: This ah, false identity. Adam Kriegel: Ah, oh well that's a good friend of mine whose name is Edith Brun. Brun. Edith Brun. Her mother was a political, political woman but I can't remember what she was but she mixed with the political circles. And it is through her that got these papers. Actually, in Belgium a lot of people ah, had her papers and the Belgians, in, well were very ah, helpful in saving people. I myself did it. Belgium consists, of course you know that, of two nationalities: the Belgians and the, the Walloons and the Flander. And the Flan-, Flemish people were very pro-German. Pro-Hitler. They actually denounced people. Do you understand? Whereas the French-speaking Walloons were to the contrary. And this is, these friends of mine with whom I had contact all the time. I wrote to them. I saw them, I went there and I saw. Barbara Blackman: They were Catholic—the Walloons—on the whole? They were Catholic? Adam Kriegel: Well, I don't know. I don't know that. I think that the father must have been some, I don't know, in, in, in education. Director of education or something like that. And the mother, as I said, was a polit-, a political … Barbara Blackman: So she helped many people, not just you? She would have helped other people as well in this way? Adam Kriegel: This is true. This is true, yes. Barbara Blackman: Did you have any occasions in which you were nearly exposed? Were you … Adam Kriegel: Yes. I did have, yes, such, such occasions happened lots of times but every time something saved me. Yes. Barbara Blackman: Do you think it was luck that saved you? Or … Adam Kriegel: I don't know. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: But or what? Like or what? What do you want to say? Barbara Blackman: Well, I don't, I don't know what to say. I suppose the compassion of people is also your good luck, isn't it? But you know, sometimes just a little instant can deflect the attention from someone discovering, you know, your identity. Adam Kriegel: Well, I will relate to you one instance for example. At one stage I became aware that I was in danger where I used to live, you see where I used to come. And I should change my ah, place. So I went to live for a while with a friend of mine who was a young man ah, a Belgian man. He was a apothecary-, ah, how would you say? Barbara Blackman: A pharmacist? Adam Kriegel: A pharmacist but an army pharmacist. He was in the army but a pharmacist. And so I, and he played a bit of violin, you see. So I went to him because that means we can, we could play duets together so and he offered me hospitality so at night I, I slept on a mattress and during the daytime he used to roll up this mattress and put it in a, in a cupboard. And, and one night, like that, we suddenly heard a bell. Who was ring four o'clock or five? Or four or five, you see, at night. Well … Barbara Blackman: You mean in the morning? Four or five in the morning? Adam Kriegel: Four in the morning. And that was a, a block of flats actually. And that, and sure enough it was the Germans. They came from the front, they came from the back and they inspected every flat. And between that,, they inspected so our flat. Yeah, I thought that was the end of me because I had false papers and at that time one should, one was not allowed to sleep anywhere but in his place. I wanted to sleep in hotel, you see. Not in, in houses. Well, I then went, went over to show my papers. I show my papers and the bloke looks at me and says, 'M'mm.' Well I then knew what he means with that, you know. I started preparing myself, he went to the other flat, I started preparing everything to tell my friend—the chemist—to, to sort of tell my friends what happened to me and so on. Then we released suddenly that the place was quiet. The Germans went. Well I didn't waste much time but I, ha, nicked off and went to the place where I was originally. But that was just was to, to work out, do something else was on the … Event: Interview Paused Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:19 Barbara Blackman: Tape one, side two. Barbara Blackman talking with Adam Kriegel. So then the whole of the war period you stayed in Brussels and you were able to … Adam Kriegel: Not the whole war. Barbara Blackman: Uh huh. Adam Kriegel: Because ah, when Bel-, ah, Belgium was attacked with the Germans that was, I think in May. In May '40. I decided to join the Polish Legion, that army, in France. So I went to France with a few special compatriots. Barbara Blackman: All with false papers? Adam Kriegel: No, yes. No, at that time there was no question of that, of a Jew or no Jew. No. Because it was just attacked. The first days of war. Barbara Blackman: So this was before this … M'mm. Adam Kriegel: And as you know, the [indecipherable]. was all year. All year they just did nothing. And after a few days, because we had to hide ourselves in, in, in trenches if they were bombarded from the air from … you understand? Barbara Blackman: This is for the third time in your life you were hiding? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Well, yes, but so, every time it was different. Well each time it was different, you see. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: But I mean that in the first ah, what do you call the first? How that soldiers shoot in my window. But, but that was … I, I must have been then about three or four. And, and this time ah, it was a, about 45 years difference. And because the Germans was, well, much more technological, they were not shooting in windows, they were for, shooting from the planes in the trenches. Anyway, anyway I landed in France and the first thing I remember we got all very drunk. We got drunk because to celebrate the fact that we landed finally in Reims, Reims. Reims is a town in north France. And after that we went, we took ah, they took us to a camp if, as a, a mil-, mitilary, military camp in [indecipherable]. Gardanne—another place in France. In [indecipherable]. Gardanne they of course started to teach us, there was uniforms and so on. But by the time we got our uniforms there was, the, the, the war was over in France, in that particular part. Because ah, the French just capitulated. Do you understand? And one morning, when we came to the assembly and all decked up in our new uniforms and boots and so on, we were told by the officers, 'You are no longer soldiers. Go where you want.' And this is how I finally ah, after many sort of, many adventures I found myself in Nantes. In Nantes, as a refugee because all those uniforms were thrown away, we were to-, we had, we procured ourselves some civilian clothes from the French villagers and in Nantes I, I landed as a refugee. Barbara Blackman: By yourself or with other people? Adam Kriegel: Oh, with many other people. Many others. Yes. Not in by myself. Yeah, we were hundreds of people trying to get as far as possible to the ah, Spanish frontier because once there, we were, well were safe. But alas, we were surprised when we were taken over at Nantes. And so in that refugee camp I spent a couple of months thinking that the war will be over soon and the Germans wouldn't take up all, all, all France. But they will take some France but not as far as Nantes. Well, nothing happened. And one of, of our friends went back to Belgium one day to, to find out how things are. And he came back and there to me a bundle of letters from my mother who still remained there. My, well straight away, my father died in 1937 and, and my mother of course didn't know what's happened to me. Barbara Blackman: Your father died naturally? Adam Kriegel: Naturally, yes. And so ah, I decided then Barbara Blackman: Just a … Adam Kriegel: … in France in Nantes and then from Nantes I went back to Brussels because of the letters. I thought maybe we can somehow establish a contact with my mother. Then my ah, so to find a way of, to save myself I had a few pupils and so on. And that was before I became Gabrielle Dehut. You see? Yes. Would you like to eat? Barbara Blackman: So you were able to make contact with your mother? Adam Kriegel: No. I was not. I don't know … Barbara Blackman: Never again? Adam Kriegel: To this day, I don't know what happened. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. And your brother? Adam Kriegel: No. Well, no. This is a sore point, you know, I must tell you. In '38 I went—that is before the outbreak of the war—I went back to, to my mother, Bialystok. I went from Belgium to Poland and to say goodbye to them. Because I, I thought ah, you know, I should write you a book. I should write a big book. Barbara Blackman: You should. Adam Kriegel: Autobiography. Barbara Blackman: You should. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Well you're just doing a little bit of it now but once you started, you remember a lot more. Adam Kriegel: But it's so difficult to remember the sequence of things. Barbara Blackman: It doesn't matter. Adam Kriegel: You, you remember only pell-mell, you know. Ah … Barbara Blackman: Well that's all right. It doesn't have to be in sequence. Adam Kriegel: Well when I lived in Belgium, there was, is in Belgium—as you've probably heard of that—a contest. A contest of the Queen of Belgium. Ah, she was called Queen Elisabeth and one of the jurors, one of the judges was Professor Heinze. Barbara Blackman: Professor Bernard Heinze? Adam Kriegel: Bernard Heinze. Barbara Blackman: Really? Adam Kriegel: And when in Belgium I used to sometimes play in the radio for example for the, in Bel-, in, in, in for-, in Belgium you have different stages, you have there and Catholic radio you had ah, other parties radio, you know? And one of those directors was a certain Mr Mayer—I still remember the name—Mr Mayer. Mayer. And he, he says, 'Why don't you contact ah, Professor Heinze?' Because he knew that I was thinking of coming to Australia. And so I, I went to see Professor Heinze. He was very ah, very friendly and he said that he will get me a job in, in Adelaide. And they said you sit in Brussels and wait for, news from him. And I was thankful of, of that. I went to Bialystok to tell my parents that it's all right, that I am going to Australia. That I was promised a job. And ah, setting up out there. Do you understand? It was before the war, '38. Barbara Blackman: What made you think of coming to Australia? What did you know about Australia? Adam Kriegel: Well, a lot. In fact, all I know ah, many things I knew about Australia. Barbara Blackman: What sort of things? Adam Kriegel: Oh, a good life. First of all, that life for, for this is a job is plentiful and so on. And since I couldn't find anything for me in Poland and in Belgium I was an alien and therefore there weren't, they weren't any sorts of activity I, I thought of Australia as being … Barbara Blackman: But when you say jobs were plentiful, what kind of jobs were you thinking … Adam Kriegel: Musical jobs. Barbara Blackman: Really? It, really? There was word in Europe, in the late thirties that there were lots of musical jobs in Australia, were there? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: I find that surprising. Adam Kriegel: That is so. Well of course, why not? At that time for example that the, the orchestra did not exist yet. Why? Because there was not enough musicians. Barbara Blackman: So Bernard Heinze obviously knew that you were Jewish? Adam Kriegel: Well yes but this has not, no connection whatsoever. Barbara Blackman: Well, I only want to ask you that because I've interviewed another musician who says that Bernard Heinze prevented him from getting work because he was Jewish. Adam Kriegel: Well, I can't even believe that. Barbara Blackman: Well, no, that's why I, it, it's good to record um, you know, your experience as well. Adam Kriegel: Well, look, later on, when I came to Australia, he gave me a job. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: He, he made me a teacher at his Conservatorium in um, here, in, in Melbourne. Where I taught for three years. But after that I was a bit disappointed. I fell out with Professor Heinze. Barbara Blackman: What years were those that you were at the Conservatorium here? Adam Kriegel: What years? Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: Ah, must have been '48 until '50 or something. Forty-seven to '50, '51. Just for three years. Yes. Barbara Blackman: In Melbourne? Adam Kriegel: And after that, there is, there are plenty of those people, you know. But I don't know anything. I only know that I worked at that the Conservatorium for three years. And after that I was engaged to play concerto with Eugene Goossens. You know Goossens? Barbara Blackman: Eugene Goossens. Adam Kriegel: Goossens, yes. He was a conductor and I was to play ah, always a concerto with him. And he was most kind and he said, 'Come to, to, to Sydney. Because in Sydney there's more opportunity for people like you.' Barbara Blackman: Can we jump, you've jumped a little bit um, you've made a big jump ah, Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: from when you first thought of coming to Australia in 1938 or something like that. And then to when you were in Brussels um, during the war. Adam Kriegel: Yeah. Barbara Blackman: So after you went back to Brussels and got your false papers, how long did you stay in Brussels? Adam Kriegel: Ah, well until the end of this all. Barbara Blackman: Un-, until the end of the war? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Supporting yourself by giving lessons? Adam Kriegel: Lessons sometimes. I got parcels from the ah, Underground parcels, you know. Ah, food, food parcels. Barbara Blackman: From where? Adam Kriegel: As that's the Underground. Ah, I, I, I must say that I had a lot of people who did good me. Who, who rendered a service to me. One man, for example, was, gave me a lot of care, [indecipherable]. René Vannes. Maybe you know him. Because he … Barbara Blackman: What name? Adam Kriegel: René Vannes. Vannes. Double N, E at the end. And ah, he actually let me to live in his house during the day and, and do what I, I, at that time I became interested in arranging old manuscripts from the library you see. Figured bases. Now if you know what it means: figured base. But from the figure seal you, you know like Bach or ah, Handel ah, Corelli, they didn't write it the way they do today. But they simply put figures to indicate what they wanted. And, and so I became interested in this particular job. And I, I worked for myself actually. And for that I needed a piano. A piano. And so this man let me use his piano, during the day. I spent the whole day in his basement with the piano and ah, to keep this arrangements. But that's only one example how helpful people were, you see. In Belgium. Barbara Blackman: Now um, you spoke Russian first, then Polish. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Then French. When did you learn your French? Adam Kriegel: Oh, in Belgium you speak French. Barbara Blackman: Yes, but how did you come, you, you learnt it only when you went to Brussels? Adam Kriegel: I learnt at school. Barbara Blackman: M'mm? Adam Kriegel: I learnt at school French. Barbara Blackman: You learnt French at school? So your French Adam Kriegel: Yes. No … Barbara Blackman: was pretty good? Adam Kriegel: Well yes, no. When I came to Brussels, I didn't even able to go in hotel to ask for hotel. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: You see? But soon I learned and I was also in Paris. You know, I forgot to tell you that in the meantime when I finished my studies in Brussels, I wanted to study also in Paris and I went to Paris and I know Paris well. Barbara Blackman: So you did study in Paris for a while? Adam Kriegel: Yes, yes. Barbara Blackman: With whom? Adam Kriegel: Ha, well nothing escapes you, is that so? Ah, you, you remember Ginette Neveu? Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: She was killed in the air crash. Barbara Blackman: Ginette Neveu, yes. And she had a brother Jean Neveu. Adam Kriegel: Yes. And her teacher in Paris was a certain man called Boucherit. That's his name, Boucherit. And so I learnt with him a little bit. Barbara Blackman: So um … Adam Kriegel: And that was because, just as in Brussels, was a, actually was sort of different. Well anyway, I can't say everything. Barbara Blackman: No. Event: Laughs Barbara Blackman: Um, so let's go on to the end of the war. Where were you when the ah, British invasion came and the end of the war came? Where were you? Adam Kriegel: That's not the situation. We call, we call that the liberation. Of course in Brussels. I was in Brussels. Barbara Blackman: What do you remember of that? Adam Kriegel: Oh, great joy. Great joy. The Germans behaved like ah, dirty dogs. And when they ah, realised that they had to resist from Brussels, you could spit on them. You know? Ah and before they were so proud. Deutschland. Deutschland Uber Alles. But ah, when, when liberation came, it was people dancing in the streets, you know. Which was marvellous. Marvellous. Barbara Blackman: Then what happened? Adam Kriegel: Well, then I came to Australia. Event: Laughs Barbara Blackman: Um, not, not Adam Kriegel: To … Barbara Blackman: straight away. You went, because you came out to Australia in '47. So that was two years after the war. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Well listen, now ah, after the war ended, my, all I wanted to find my parents. To … Barbara Blackman: You went back to your right name? Adam Kriegel: No, no. I wanted to find them first. Barbara Blackman: Yes, but when did you go back to your name? When did you go, go, when did you give up your false name? Adam Kriegel: Well naturally after, after liberation. Barbara Blackman: Straight away? Adam Kriegel: Yes. And I still have somewhere those ah, that passport. But I don't know where. And among my papers, you know. After I die or something, they will find it. But not before. Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: It is so complicated. Ah, well how could I cut a sor-, a long story short? And a story which doesn't give me any pleasure. After the, the war ended, my only wish was to find my mother and my brother. And after a year or two, I realised that useless. And I had an uncle in America. In New York. And this uncle was a good man. And he send me a letter and send, 'Come to America. Come …' he realised what was the situation, you see. And he said, 'Come to America.' Well what's the use of sitting there doing nothing in Brussels, you see? So I went and from America, I went to here—to Brus-, to, to Australia. My uncle and his son, they wanted me to stay with them, to stay in America and thanks God I didn't. Not as much was here but it was, I mean to say is, Australia is becoming more and more like America, isn't it? Barbara Blackman: But it wasn't then so much, was it? Adam Kriegel: Not then. That is true. Barbara Blackman: Can I just go back to ask you um, during the war, how much did you know about the camps in, in Germany? Or did you only know … Adam Kriegel: I knew everything. Barbara Blackman: You did? Adam Kriegel: Yes. We used to, to listen to the ah, the English radio. Ah not, and this, that, that at that time, that was, that is the symbol of the Fifth Symphony of Beethoven became the symbol of freedom. And we listen a lot to that though we were risking our lives by listening to this particular radio. So that I knew everything what happened. Barbara Blackman: But you still didn't know about the ah, genocide camps? Adam Kriegel: Yes. I knew, I knew, I knew. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Anyway, then you came to Australia um, in '47 by yourself. Adam Kriegel: That's right. Barbara Blackman: And um, so tell me about that. Um … Adam Kriegel: Well I lived in, in Sydney for a while and … Barbara Blackman: How did you find Australia? Was it like you expected? Adam Kriegel: Ah, well was a, a paradise. Paradise. After, after what I saw in Europe, you know, after the war, it was just a, the contrast was so great that I felt that I in paradise. And my only regret to this day, to this day, I, I recall that, that is hanging over me is the fact that I couldn't bring my, my mother and brother here. Yes. And that I should really ah, after all to, to, to share their fate rather than to have a good life here. But … Barbara Blackman: But if they could have had their wish, they would have wished you to be here, wouldn't they? Adam Kriegel: They would wish that somebody survives, of course. My, my mother particularly about this, from her letters, I realised that they, that she was certain that they also perish because ah, the Germans were ah, in, in that part of Poland after, after … well, you know that the Russians first occupied Bialystok and my mother had all sorts of … she knew the Russians. She was an educated person and she could teach and so, but, but after Germany attacked Russia, she was ah, she did, I, I lost any contact with her. Barbara Blackman: So when you came to Australia then, you didn't speak English? Adam Kriegel: I spoke a little bit English. Not only because I took some lesson ah, I always was a bit language-minded, you know? I took some lessons. But I didn't speak well at all. In fact when I was teaching at the Conservatorium here in Melbourne, I at the same time ah, was called to write articles in The Musical News and that was a journal which existed at the time. And my wife helped me a lot with that. Barbara Blackman: Now let's fill in a little bit um, when you first came to Australia, you came into that teaching job at the Conservatorium rather than into, of performing work. Adam Kriegel: Oh, no. That is not, so is not, not correct. Barbara Blackman: All right. You, you, you just … okay. Adam Kriegel: Ah, it was at the same time. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. So what, what were your first um, performance engagements in Australia? Adam Kriegel: My fir-, very first was a recital at the Assembly Hall. Barbara Blackman: In Melbourne? Adam Kriegel: In Melbourne, 10 November. I still remember. And patronised by ah, Professor Heinze at that time you see. Barbara Blackman: What did you perform? Adam Kriegel: Ah, what I performed? I can, can't tell even that. Ah, at that time I knew ah, Raymond Lambert. Do you, do you remember? Barbara Blackman: Raymond Lambert, yes. Yes. Adam Kriegel: He, he was a Belgian. Barbara Blackman: That's right. Yes. Adam Kriegel: Yes. And a very good pianist. And he was my accompanist at that time. And we played with him—this is a fact sort, this is a fact. Ah, we played a lot of by Handel. We played also ah, by Szymanowski—and I should not tell tales, a very difficult Polish, Polish composition. And that … do you want more? I can't remember. Barbara Blackman: Um, now Diana, when did you meet your wife? Adam Kriegel: Yes. When? Barbara Blackman: Where and when, yes. Adam Kriegel: Yes, well … Barbara Blackman: Where, when, how? Adam Kriegel: Ah, well when I was still in Brussels I met a, a childhood friend, childhood friend of mine and they lived opposite our place. And as children, maybe ten, twelve, we played together. And this ah, friend went to Australia. Ah, I mixed with this ah, crowd of people—my compatriots. And ah, one night we went to pictures. And my wife was also coming. At that time I didn't know her, you see. And that's when I met my wife. Barbara Blackman: So you married soon after? Adam Kriegel: Soon after, yes. And this friend of mine was my best friend. Best man. Barbara Blackman: And then you went to Sydney? Adam Kriegel: Oh, two years after that. Barbara Blackman: I see. M'mm. So um, so during that time you were at the Conservatorium here then you had quite a few um, recitals? Adam Kriegel: Oh yes. Yes. Barbara Blackman: How did you find the musical climate in Melbourne at that time? Adam Kriegel: Well, every-, it was everything pleases me at that time. Everything pleased me. Barbara Blackman: And what about the standard of teaching at the Conservatorium and the quality of the students you were getting? Adam Kriegel: This has a lot, a lot of defects. The students naturally … I was used to the fact that when you're a student of music, you devote a lot of time to this. But in Australia I found the students didn't want to practise there and so that was much to be desired. Barbara Blackman: And what about the concerts that were available? Was that … Adam Kriegel: Yeah, concerts were plentiful. At that time the, Melbourne already had an orchestra, Sydney had an orchestra. Ah, Adelaide had, I think so. Diana Kriegel: Yes. Adam Kriegel: I think also [indecipherable]. And there were concerts and, and that the standard was pretty high. You know, it is a mistake to think that in this respect Australia lags behind. Ah and I found that the standards in Australia can compare very favourably with other places. Barbara Blackman: And we were getting already quite a few visiting um, ABC celebrity artists. Adam Kriegel: Consequently, yes. That's right. Barbara Blackman: Including Ginette Neveu, didn't we … Adam Kriegel: That's right. Actually Ginette Neveu ah, played also with Goossens and, and before my concerts, which I also played with Goossens. Barbara Blackman: So um, during that time you were in Melbourne, in the late forties, did you play concerti with the orchestra? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Yes, I played. Barbara Blackman: Ah, which ones? Do you remember? Adam Kriegel: Ah, Well Mendelssohn ah, Wieniawski, Chausson, others. Other, plenty. Event: Coughs Adam Kriegel: You see when I came to Australia I was also a celebrity. But it didn't last very long. People became used to me and I became just a local artist. Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: And that is fatal. Barbara Blackman: Yes. You think that's fatal, do you? That ah … Adam Kriegel: To be a local artist it is fatal, not in Australia. It is fatal everywhere. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Um, what about ah, music um, being written in Australia at that time? How did you, did you play some works by local composers? How did you find that? Adam Kriegel: No, I didn't play much ah, local. But—local music. But I remember at, what's the name of that lady who, who's dead now, but whose play, to, to composing music very serious? Who .. Barbara Blackman: Margaret Sutherland? Adam Kriegel: Sutherland. Yes. Ma-, I didn't play anything of hers but I remember that I think she asked me to, to do something about that ah, other people but I didn't take much interest in that because I myself am not a composer. I don't compose the music. Barbara Blackman: You never have? Adam Kriegel: Not, no. Never. Actually you know, now that I am an artist I find that it is now that I found my true vocation. Barbara Blackman: Were you painting still? Adam Kriegel: I'm still painting, yes. Barbara Blackman: No, no. At this time, in the forties? When … Adam Kriegel: As I say, as I told you, I've painted since I could hold a brush in my hand. Barbara Blackman: So you always had the desire … Adam Kriegel: Always had some picture, some copies of, of, of all sorts of pictures, you know? That, that is something which I never stopped doing. Barbara Blackman: Now can I then backtrack a little bit about your painting? Um, at the time when you went to Paris first ah, you would then have seen an overwhelming ah, number of paintings there. Adam Kriegel: Yes. That's correct. Barbara Blackman: And what effect did that have on you? Can you remember particular painters that impressed you deeply? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Yes. One picture particularly ah, impressed me very much and that is a picture painted by Louis David ah, representing the dead Marat in his bathroom when he was assassinated with ah, in his bathtub. Well … Barbara Blackman: That's in the Louvre? Adam Kriegel: In the Louvre I saw it for the first time. And that picture has very much inf-, ah, impression on me. Because ah, it made a great impression. So much so that I became interested in the French Revolution. Probably because of that picture. And ah, subsequently I made a study of the French Revolution. I bought books on the revolution and, and now I am even now ah, actually one of my exhibitions in, in Adelaide during the Festival was devoted to the French Revolution. Barbara Blackman: Yes, I'd like to come to that a bit later too. You, but your interest in the French Revolution started on your first visit to Paris? Adam Kriegel: That's correct, yes. Barbara Blackman: Um, now of this early work, of the paintings you did before you came to Australia, did any of these come to Australia with you? Adam Kriegel: Only one of them I, I kept. That is [indecipherable]. But only one or two I, I still have, I still have a self-portrait when I was probably a teenager ah, made in '39. Barbara Blackman: What of? What is the picture of? Adam Kriegel: Ah, a self-portrait. Barbara Blackman: Self-portrait. Adam Kriegel: And, and also a view of the streets, the streets where I lived. Yeah, I remember that. That's, that's the only things. Occasionally I come across a drawing, some drawings or some copying in a book which I did but, no consequence. Barbara Blackman: The other paintings you left in Brussels? Or you destroyed them? What happened to them? Adam Kriegel: Oh, is not worth keeping. It was of course done ah, with, on paper and with cheap paints. It was not, it was not a painting that you keep. Barbara Blackman: So when you then came to live in Melbourne in the late forties Adam Kriegel: Yeah. Barbara Blackman: ah, did you set up a studio? A painting studio? Adam Kriegel: Ah, no. At that time I was not interested in painting to such an extent as to have a studio for it. I … Barbara Blackman: So you just painted occasionally? Adam Kriegel: Occasionally, yes. Barbara Blackman: What did you think of the painting then that you saw in Melbourne at that time? Adam Kriegel: Not much. Barbara Blackman: Whose work did you see? Adam Kriegel: Well of course I saw the Heidelberg School so-called. The, that means the Australian Impressionists. But at that time of course communications between Australia and the rest of the world were very, very difficult. And Australia was a bit like another planet. Barbara Blackman: But there were people um, an exciting lot of painters working in Sydney in the forties—Sidney Nolan, Bert Tucker. Adam Kriegel: Ah … Barbara Blackman: Yosl Bergner. Did you see any of their work? Adam Kriegel: No. Ah, I didn't see much at that time because I didn't get out of my way to see it. But now, of course, I know that Sidney Nolan, Tucker ah, Baker like, all these people worked [indecipherable]. at that time. Barbara Blackman: They were just around the corner, yes. Adam Kriegel: Around the corner. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: And ah, in recent years I acquired a book on the man who actually influ-, influenced their work a lot. And … Barbara Blackman: Who's that? Adam Kriegel: As a matter of fact it was just a Russian Cossack. Barbara Blackman: Danila Vassilieff. Adam Kriegel: Vassilieff. Barbara Blackman: Great man, Danila. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Well he was not great but he had a sense of modern art and, and this man, of course to me it was not so original anymore. At that time was very familiar, this was going on in modern art. But at that time, I imagine in the, in the thirties, it must have been very ah, very revolutionary. Barbara Blackman: Yes, certainly. Event: Interview Paused Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:17 Barbara Blackman: Tape two, side one. Barbara Blackman for Australian National Library Oral History Program, talking with violinist, painter, Adam Kriegel. Adam Kriegel: Kriegel. Barbara Blackman: Um, would you like to tell me ah, your impression of Bernard Heinze? Give me a little memory portrait of him. Adam Kriegel: Well now … Barbara Blackman: Go. Adam Kriegel: I don't know Heinze enough to paint a portrait of him. Do you understand? Now when I paint, I, I don't paint portraits. Barbara Blackman: No, I meant ah, in words. Adam Kriegel: In words? Of course I, I realise that. There were some-, something good and something not so good. And maybe it is just the fact that he was a busy man and he, he didn't sort of go into subtleties, do you understand? But ah, I don't know him enough to, to paint in words of a portrait of him. That fact is that it was in his power to save my family but it was not his fault either that he didn't do it because he was in Canada at the time and, and because he was away from Australia, that for a whole year I didn't hear anything at all from him and I can't, regarding ah, my possible job in Australia. Do you understand that? And so I cannot say. He probably doesn't know it and I never mentioned that to him. Barbara Blackman: After your term with the Conservatorium in Melbourne ah, you went then to Adelaide, did you? Adam Kriegel: No, then I went to Sydney. Barbara Blackman: Then you went to Sydney and you ah, had … Adam Kriegel: Yeah, at the Conservatorium also. Barbara Blackman: At the Conservatorium in Sydney? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Um, and then you were playing under Goossens? Adam Kriegel: That was before I went to Sydney. Barbara Blackman: I see. And then you gave concerts in Sydney, did you? While you were there? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Yes. I gave concerts but I can't remember much about this. I know that Sydney, ah, in Sydney I gave some ah, a series of concerts at the Conservatorium. Ah, I played on the radio but I, I don't remember much about that. Barbara Blackman: How long were you in Sydney? Adam Kriegel: Two years. And after that an offer came to me from Adelaide to come to the orchestra. So that's it. That's how I landed in, in Adelaide. I loved Adelaide very much. In fact I considered that, that Adelaide is the best town for me—size, climate, everything. Unfortunately I was a married man and I couldn't do things that pleased me. I also had to consider what pleases my wife. And we had a daughter here in, in Melbourne. She married a, a Perth boy—social worker—and she lives here. And because of that my wife and I, they, they wanted to come back to Melbourne. Barbara Blackman: How long were you living in Adelaide? Adam Kriegel: Twenty-five years. Yes. Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: Twenty-five years I think. Barbara Blackman: And how much of that time were you with the orchestra? Adam Kriegel: Ah, probably 15 years I think. Something like that. Barbara Blackman: Um, can you perhaps—it's a, a long time—and we can perhaps pick out just a few highlights of your career in Adelaide, of your … Adam Kriegel: Yes. Well I came to Adelaide in '54 and so it is from that time that begin, begins my activity as a painter. Because music in the orchestra didn't ah, didn't satisfy me enough to just ah, bet on that. And so I, I became, I started, I joined the South Australian Diana Kriegel: Society. Adam Kriegel: ah, Society. Well say got some, some encouragement there and eventually, little by little, I learnt from friends, from colleagues, from other things, I went to school also. And it was very good. Barbara Blackman: Now what, what school? What school? An art school did you? Adam Kriegel: That was the South Australian Art School. Diana Kriegel: School of Arts. Adam Kriegel: The School of Arts, yes. Barbara Blackman: And what, what, you went to classes there? Life classes? Adam Kriegel: I, I went to, to life class. Barbara Blackman: And who was teaching there at the time? Adam Kriegel: I, I, I expected you will ask me. Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: And I can't remember. He was a very nice man. Maybe you remember. Diana Kriegel: No, I don't remember. Adam Kriegel: No. Barbara Blackman: And um, you met other painters there? Who did you meet? Adam Kriegel: Yes. I met ah, I met practically all of them because later on I became influential in the Society, became a judge of ah … Diana Kriegel: Selection committee. Adam Kriegel: Ah? Diana Kriegel: Selection committee. Adam Kriegel: What's that? Diana Kriegel: Selection committee. Adam Kriegel: Selection committee. I joined also the Contemporary Art Society. I must tell you that in many respects Aus-, life in Adelaide is much more advanced artistically than, than Adelaide. Than, than Melbourne. Barbara Blackman: Um, now your painting, you got off to a new start with your painting. Um, how did your painting become different from what it had been before? Adam Kriegel: I don't know. Ha. That this has become different. In fact, that portrait which I mentioned to you a little earlier. Ah, in a way, it's not different from what I am doing now. So that in fact I keep saying very often that you learn nothing. You, you learn nothing. Either you have talent or you don't. Barbara Blackman: But … Adam Kriegel: And this is so with art. Ah, maybe you learn mathematics or history but ah, in art, either you have the talent or ability to do things or you don't. And the basics, you learn very quickly from sc-, from books almost ah, reading a book. How to mix paint. How to apply paint. How to draw and so on. Ah, in the olden days you see an artist had to be apprenticed to a, to a master and he learns how to draw faces, hands, draperies and all those sorts of things. But today, it is a negative thing. Do you know what I mean? Ah, and the, the knowledge of anatomy is not important anymore. They don't ah, appreciate a figure which is anatomically perfect. In fact we find it very boring. And certain deformation of fantasy, of freedom, is very much appreciated. And this is what I ah, find plays in my favour. Barbara Blackman: But you must have had a greater access to material um, when you started to paint again in Adelaide. Adam Kriegel: What material? Wasn't material. What do you mean? Barbara Blackman: Well you me-, you, you were saying that before, when, when you were painting in Europe, you were painting on scraps of paper and whatever you could get. Adam Kriegel: Ah, yes. Barbara Blackman: Now, now you had um, access to um, good quality canvas and, and oils and um … Adam Kriegel: Well, no. I was never in favour of good quality of things because ah, good quality paper makes me nervous. And when you're nervous, of course you don't do as well. Ah, actually my best pictures ah, are done on almost nothing. Barbara Blackman: But you wouldn't say this of your violin, would you? And I haven't asked you where you got your vio-, … Adam Kriegel: I could never afford a good violin, you know. I could never afford a very good violin. Barbara Blackman: What was the instrument you brought to Australia with you? Adam Kriegel: Oh well, that was another thing. It was a very good Montagnana violin. Barbara Blackman: Where did you get that? Adam Kriegel: Ah, Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: nothing you, is, is hidden from you. Well, I was given that as a, as a gi-, as a, a friend, lend. Do you understand? Somewhere … Barbara Blackman: No. Adam Kriegel: Some man who had many good violins in Warsaw. And alas, I didn't tell this but of course he was dead by then. He was an old man. Barbara Blackman: He, so this man loaned you his instrument then when he died it, it um … Adam Kriegel: It was not his instrument. He had many instruments. Barbara Blackman: I see. Yes. M'mm. So you had that same violin then from when you were quite young? Adam Kriegel: Yes but later on I sold it. And … Barbara Blackman: Where? In Brussels? Adam Kriegel: Ah no, here. Barbara Blackman: Here? Adam Kriegel: In, in Melbourne. And, and after that Barbara Blackman: Yes, so that was the same one you brought to Melbourne? Adam Kriegel: I played on a Smith violin. You know Smith? Barbara Blackman: No, I don't. Adam Kriegel: Oh, he was a famous Australian made, maker. Of course he's dead now. He was an old man. And one of his best instruments ah, I was able to acquire and I played on that. When we went abroad several times, I always in London ah, I si-, I, I always went to the Christie's or what, where … Diana Kriegel: Sotheby's. Adam Kriegel: Eh? Diana Kriegel: Sotheby's. Adam Kriegel: Sotheby's. These sort of ah, auction places. And sometimes I picked up very good violins there. Barbara Blackman: So how many do you have now? Adam Kriegel: I sold my good violin. I, I don't play anymore. I am not able to play. Barbara Blackman: So how much did you pay for the Smith? Do you remember? Adam Kriegel: No. I don't remember. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. You don't remember? Diana Kriegel: No. But I think the Smith sort of, it was a very reasonable price because he considered it a, you know, an honour that Adam was going to play. He had two prize violins. One went to his son-in-law Llewellyn and the other one to Adam. They were, they'd, they'd obtained prizes overseas and so on. But I don't think this price would convey very much because it was just so reasonable but ah, no, I'm, I'm sorry, I couldn't … Barbara Blackman: And ah, so that um, 15 years that you were playing with the um, orchestra in Adelaide, you would have had different violins at different times? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Correct. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. M'mm. When um, would you then use a different violin for different um, performances? Adam Kriegel: Naturally, if I had a different violin sometimes there. Diana Kriegel: No, no, no, that's not the question. You always had one favourite at the time. Adam Kriegel: Oh, yes, yes. That's correct. Yes. Yes. Barbara Blackman: So you would choose from, between several violins for a particular work that you were performing? Adam Kriegel: Well, just from two or three that were on hand, you know. Barbara Blackman: Now, um, so let-, let's go back to your um, becoming more active as a painter. Adam Kriegel: Yeah. Barbara Blackman: And ah, tell me about your first exhibiting? Adam Kriegel: Well, my first picture which exhibit, I exhibited at the Society of Art was a still life. And that still life was so pleasing to the people that I became an associate straight away. And, and naturally, and sold this picture … Diana Kriegel: A fellow. Adam Kriegel: Eh? Diana Kriegel: A fellow. You became a fellow. Adam Kriegel: No, not yet. Not yet a fellow. I was just associate. And, and so, and then I'm encouraged by this, I just … and, and I must come back a little bit. Why did I paint a still life? Because when we came to Adelaide we bought a little house. That was not a very nice house. It was a little house. But it needed some ornaments and I thought to myself, well I can't afford nice picture. Why don't I try to make myself? And so I painted this still life just to embellish the house. But after I been given associate title and everything, and I sold this picture, I became very ambitious and I painted other pictures as I thought that another still life and so … and eventually ah, became what I am now. Barbara Blackman: But so, so um, when did you have your first one-man exhibition? Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: That is, that is difficult to answer. If only I had ah, access to this … Diana Kriegel: Well if you let me keep the … Barbara Blackman: See, you've got a, you've got a, a wife. Wives are always good um, memory banks. Adam Kriegel: And ah, and … Diana Kriegel: No, no, my memory's not good but he's got a box of features where, where's that box? Adam Kriegel: Well, I don't know. Diana Kriegel: I can fill in … Adam Kriegel: I don't know. This is not important. Not in there. Not in there. Diana Kriegel: Not in … Adam Kriegel: No. Ah, Diana Kriegel: Could be … Adam Kriegel: I … no. I had a, a first, my first exhibition, it was a bit of a cheek on my part because I was only a beginner practically but I, at the Society was I had my exhibition. And thanks to that exhibition I was made a fellow of the Society. And that is of course a big title. As you probably know. Diana Kriegel: It was mid-fifties. Adam Kriegel: Now I am not saying it because it's a, it's a, it's a shame to say that you are a fellow of the Society in Melbourne. But at that time it was a great thing. And that's how it happened. Barbara Blackman: Who opened that exhibition? Event: Laughs Diana Kriegel: Her name was Dorothy. Dorothy Oldham. Adam Kriegel: Dorothy Oldham, yes. Dorothy Oldham. Barbara Blackman: Dorothy who? Diana Kriegel: Oldham. Adam Kriegel: Oldham. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Diana Kriegel: Is a well-known … Adam Kriegel: She was a very nice lady. And we became very friendly. She often—not often but from time to time—played with me at the radio there. And, and she was a very, a very good model to, to paint for. Barbara Blackman: And um, what kind of reception did you get from the art critics? Adam Kriegel: Oh, I don't remember, remember that. Diana Kriegel: Well, it was fav-, very favourable. Barbara Blackman: And you sold work? Adam Kriegel: Eh? Se-, did I sell? Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Ah, that I don't know. You know, I must say it's quite ah, generally that I paint for myself. Even today. Even today. Barbara Blackman: Well no, not ah … Adam Kriegel: I do not care to sell pictures. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. So then um, during that um, time you were in Adelaide, 25 years, was it? A long time. Adam Kriegel: Yes. A lot. Barbara Blackman: Ah, you exhibited consistently? Adam Kriegel: Oh well, from time to time I, I exhibited. My … yes, I exhibited very often. Barbara Blackman: What, what do you consider your most significant periods of work? Adam Kriegel: Two things. Two subjects are ah, important to me. First of all, the Van Gogh series. There, you know, I was unaware that somebody else had the same interest like yourself, Brett Whiteley not only made ah, a Van Gogh exhibition but also published a book about him. I was unaware of that. In fact my, my series was much less spectacular than that. Ah, Diana Kriegel: Really. Adam Kriegel: in spite of the fact that I had the greatest respect for Brett Whiteley but I don't know if you are interested in that, in the subject. Are you? Barbara Blackman: Oh yes, yes. Adam Kriegel: You know that the life of Van Gogh ah, is, is a very interesting … Barbara Blackman: Oh yes and ah, his letters are marvellous and … Adam Kriegel: Letters and, and his work and the sort of mysticism, the religious mysticism and then how he became an artist of impressionism and then he went wild and eventually finished in a mad house. Well, all that I expressed in a series of portraits—imaginary portraits. Do you understand? Each portrait ah, different from another. But no more than that. And … Barbara Blackman: How many were in your series? How many portraits? Adam Kriegel: Oh, I, oh, probably about 30. But I had not only one exhibition, I had at least six or seven exhibitions of that sort. One as a matter of fact was sold completely to, to a Diana Kriegel: Collector. Adam Kriegel: collector in Sydney. Barbara Blackman: The whole series? Diana Kriegel: Yes. Adam Kriegel: The whole series. Barbara Blackman: The whole series of … Diana Kriegel: The show. The whole, he bought the show. Barbara Blackman: Well, the show Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: of 30 portraits? Adam Kriegel: Yes. It was ah, portraits and drawings and so on. Barbara Blackman: Who, who bought it? Diana Kriegel: We don't know. They never disclose. Adam Kriegel: You know, there's a gallery in Sydney called Bloomfield Gallery. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. They were sold from there, were they? Adam Kriegel: And that, Diana Kriegel: No, no. Adam Kriegel: that they were charged with acquiring this collection. Diana Kriegel: They send a rep to pay for it. Adam Kriegel: And I don't know what happened to it after that. Diana Kriegel: It was a festival show and this fellow representing Bloomfield did the rounds of all that was showing at the time of this particular festival. And then suggested to, it was at Llewellyn Galleries in Adelaide. And suggested that they buy the lot. Barbara Blackman: And so you think that they were then exhibited at Bloomfield and sold separately? Diana Kriegel: No. No, no, no. This collector took them. Barbara Blackman: I see. Diana Kriegel: A private thing. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Barbara Blackman: Well it would be very interesting to know who that was, wouldn't it? Diana Kriegel: Yes. If you ever find out you could let us know. Adam Kriegel: Some businessman, wasn't it? A businessman. Diana Kriegel: I don't know. We never heard. I don't know why they didn't want to tell us. Richard never—Llewellyn—never knew. Adam Kriegel: No, no. He was … Diana Kriegel: He was a doctor because at one stage he donated one of them—I happened to know a fellow who's a psychologist nearby and so that he was at some ah, dinner or an affair of doctors—either psychiatry or psychology—and they ah, had this as a sort of a, a raffle or whatever and they had one of these which this particular man had donated. Adam Kriegel: Well this is one subject. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: And the other subject is what I am working now on and that is the French Revolution. Also a series of portraits of say Robespierre with his head cut off. Ah, Danton with a mask because he was the originator of so much massacres and Marie Antoinette and the king and so on. This, Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: this is what I am … but only imaginary. It's not sort of copies of some engravings or something or other. But rather imaginary portraits. Barbara Blackman: What draws you so powerfully to that subject? Adam Kriegel: Because I find a great relation between the happenings that were in, during this war that took place this, during this war and the happenings that took place in the French Revolution. Ah, particularly cruelty. Cruelty. Ah, that is what I paint. I don't paint so much the person or the attire of the person, the costume. I paint the feeling that inspires. This inspires. Barbara Blackman: So have you read greatly um, in this area of the French Revolution? You've read and read a lot? Adam Kriegel: I did. I did. And one book particularly influenced me in this. Ah, it is a French book. It's called The Mystery of the Temple. The Temple is a sort of forbidding prison into which they put in ah, the king, the queen and their children and so on. And it is very interesting. It's very historical. Becau-, he calls it a mystery because nobody knows what's happened to the little dauphin. Nobody, he has just disappeared. And, and this book ah, then changed him in, in that. Barbara Blackman: How old was the dauphin at that time? Adam Kriegel: At, when they imprisoned his, his parents and him, he was only about seven. Barbara Blackman: And ah, this is a historical book, The Mystery of the Dauphin? It, it's a historic book? Not fiction? Adam Kriegel: This, no, it's not fiction. That was just also claims that who ha-, what is truth and what is fiction is always hard to determine, isn't it? Barbara Blackman: Who is the author of this book? Adam Kriegel: It's a man called Le Notre. Le Notre. Barbara Blackman: Le Notre? M'mm. The same as the great gardener? Le Notre? Adam Kriegel: Who? Barbara Blackman: There was a great gardener. Um, so you, you painted this then again and again. Adam Kriegel: Again and again. That is correct. Barbara Blackman: Portraits of the same people again and again? Event: Traffic noise Barbara Blackman: I mean you've done many portraits of Robespierre, have you? Adam Kriegel: Yes, yes. Many. Each time I do something is very different. It's, it's, it has a different look about it. Barbara Blackman: So how many different personages have you painted portraits? Adam Kriegel: Well I, I reckon that I will have—for this exhibition—about 20, 20 [indecipherable]. pieces. Twenty. I, I do not paint a lot because it's not a history. It's not sort of ah, how they lived or what. But I don't mind if I painted the same person several times and it looks different, you know what I mean by that? Barbara Blackman: When did you start painting the French Revolution? Adam Kriegel: Ah, it was after the, the show of Van Gogh which I sold. Diana Kriegel: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: So when would that be? What year? Diana Kriegel: Um, in the sixties. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: No, no. Se-, '71 is when my, our first trip to Europe. So it would have been in seven-, the seventies. Barbara Blackman: So I think ah, yes, Brett Whiteley, I saw his exhibition of Van Gogh in New York. That was in '68. Diana Kriegel: Oh, was it? Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Yes, well I was not aware of that. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: And now I have his, Diana Kriegel: But that's Van Gogh. Adam Kriegel: I have his book here. And I find it's, of course, as usual, very, very impressionable to that but I somehow feel that the Van Gogh story is ah, is too serious and too ta-, too, too ah, to human to sort of make a whole ah, display of it, you know? To, to show off like that. Ah, it's, I found it, in art generally, art is a bit like a bird, isn't it? And not fancy cakes or something like that. Barbara Blackman: So um, then you went back to Europe in 1971, did you? Adam Kriegel: No way. Ah yes. Europe, you know. Diana Kriegel: Yes, yes. Adam Kriegel: In Europe in '71, we went for three trips. Three trips in the seventies. I can't remember when. Diana Kriegel: Seventy-five. Seventy-three. Adam Kriegel: Well the first one in '70. That … Diana Kriegel: We went '73, two years later. We went, I think maybe '76. Barbara Blackman: Where did you go to then in Europe? That first trip. Adam Kriegel: Oh, we went to everywhere, didn't he? Didn't we? Eh? Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: Well, to, to, to Ger-, to um, Spain and Belgium, France, Italy. Ah, Greece. Everywhere. Everywhere. And the queerest thing about it, that I probably went three times but we went always to the same places. Barbara Blackman: And you were looking at paintings and going to concerts? Adam Kriegel: Ah, a, a little but not much. I, I just, mainly visiting galleries themselves. Diana Kriegel: The con-, the concerts not much. Adam Kriegel: In, we went in, in, in London, didn't we? Diana Kriegel: Yes. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: You went to the Van Gogh museum in um … Adam Kriegel: Amsterdam. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Yes. We visit. Barbara Blackman: And in the forest. Diana Kriegel: In Otterlo, was it? Barbara Blackman: No, the, the Kroller-Muller? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Yes, we went there. Yes. Of course, not only Van Gogh. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Sculptures also and so on. Barbara Blackman: And so it was really from that firsthand experience of the Van Gogh paintings that you're saying your impulse came? Adam Kriegel: Well also from reading about, about that. Diana Kriegel: And then one of the trips we spent all our time in Arles. Adam Kriegel: Oh yes. Barbara Blackman: Yes. You visited Arles and … Adam Kriegel: And I must tell you the queerest thing about Arles. Nobody knew where he was, what he was, so on. Eventually I managed to locate exact spot where the yellow house was built. Barbara Blackman: The yellow house? Yes. Adam Kriegel: And to my horror I discovered that at that particular spot now is a, is a shop, is a Diana Kriegel: Supermarket. Supermarket. Adam Kriegel: supermarket selling all sorts of food. Diana Kriegel: And we found a little bust in a tiny little garden that would seem to be the only memorial that we could find. Adam Kriegel: Ah yes. The only memorial is a very ugly sort of bust. Not by him, but bust obviously someone other. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Um, and now when did you start painting the French Revolution? Adam Kriegel: I'm sar-, you told me that. Barbara Blackman: You, your re-, French Revolution pictures were after your Van Gogh pictures? Adam Kriegel: Yes, yes. But nevertheless ah, I still produce, from time to time, another Van Gogh. You know? Barbara Blackman: So you really started—I'm just trying to get this right. You really started these powerful series of paintings after your ah, period with the orchestra had finished? Adam Kriegel: This is true. This is true. I resigned from the orchestra ah, shortly after I sold the first Diana Kriegel: Right. Adam Kriegel: show of Van Gogh. That, that show here. And that must have been in the middle seventies. Barbara Blackman: So why did you give up the orchestra then? Adam Kriegel: Why? Because I became too old. Event: Laughs Diana Kriegel: Oh it wasn't. And also he was teaching, teaching art then and that interested him more at the time. Barbara Blackman: You were teaching art? Diana Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Ah, so wait till I get this right. When you went to Adelaide, you didn't have students um, for the violin? Diana Kriegel: Yes. Adam Kriegel: Yes, I had some. Barbara Blackman: Yes. So you had violin private students? Diana Kriegel: Yes. Adam Kriegel: Yes, I was teaching. For eight years I was a teacher of art. Barbara Blackman: When? What eight years? Adam Kriegel: What eight years? The last eight years. Diana Kriegel: After you left the orchestra. Adam Kriegel: The last eight years. Barbara Blackman: So wait till I get it right. So when you first went to Adelaide, you had private violin students? And gradually you gave that up and took on being an art teacher? Adam Kriegel: Well, I didn't give it up yet. But you see, at one stage one of the teachers at the School of Art went away and it was to me that ah, that they felt to replace him. Well, it's a lot of fun, isn't it? Diana Kriegel: But that's art. But Adam, at that time you were teaching for the Education Department and they seconded Adam Kriegel: Yes. Diana Kriegel: you to the School of Arts. Adam Kriegel: That's the, that's first … Barbara Blackman: Well how, how, when did you start teaching for the Education Department? At what school? Adam Kriegel: At what school? Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: Oh. Diana Kriegel: It was the secondary schools always. Ah, Seacombe High. And what was the other one? Adam Kriegel: Secondary schools. Secondary schools. Diana Kriegel: Well … Barbara Blackman: Seacombe? Adam Kriegel: I know that ah, at one school, one school ah, called the Mitchell Park. Mitchell Park. Diana Kriegel: Mitchell Park, that was the … Adam Kriegel: Mitchell Park. And this was the best time of my life. Barbara Blackman: Was it? Why? Adam Kriegel: Because at that school I learned to paint. Although I was called the, a teacher but I actually learnt from my pupils who knew less than I knew. Event: Laughs Barbara Blackman: How, tell, tell me more about that um, you know, that, that you had the joy of learning from your students. Tell me … Adam Kriegel: Well first of all, you see, I must tell you that I am very fond of chil-, child art. And child art to me is very, is spontaneous, is lively, vivifying. Generally speaking, that's how art should be. And that when people grow up and they come adults, they should be just big children. And this further, this spontaneity I learned from my boys. It was … Barbara Blackman: What, what age were you teaching? Adam Kriegel: Oh, well of course I was teach-, teaching from beginning, big, big boys. But, but I'm referring to the little boys—ten, eleven, twelve. And after they ah … Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: So I think … Diana Kriegel: Would they be ten? It was a tech. It was already a secondary school. They wouldn't have … Adam Kriegel: Secondary school. Secondary school. Diana Kriegel: So they'd have to be twelve and up I think. Adam Kriegel: But, but they still children. And when I was teaching them, I was not teaching them. They did something which I, I told them to do and I was painting their pictures. You see what I mean by that? It was entirely different from the ah, teaching of mathematics or chemistry or something else. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: We used to have a big pictures, size of the wall with class and each child contributed to it. You see heads of people. Some large, some small. The small ones were, were up the ceiling. And the large ones came down and so you had the impression of a class painting. You see. And they stacked these heads um, on the background. In fact I, I realised that I must have been a funny sort of teacher because they only did what I told them to. Barbara Blackman: Um, so you were teaching them at secondary schools, part-time? Adam Kriegel: Not part-time. Full-time. Barbara Blackman: Full-time? Adam Kriegel: Full-time, yes. Diana Kriegel: He'd left the orchestra then. Barbara Blackman: After you'd left the orchestra? So this was in the se-, … Adam Kriegel: Not after. Not after. At one stage I said, 'Enough is enough.' So I, is this not so? Diana Kriegel: But when you worked for the Education Department you had to leave the, the orchestra. You didn't, you weren't Adam Kriegel: Really? Diana Kriegel: on-call. I mean you weren't, you couldn't run two at once. Adam Kriegel: Oh, yes. I couldn't possibly teach at the school and play in the orchestra. Diana Kriegel: That's right. So, yes. Adam Kriegel: So I resigned from the orchestra. Diana Kriegel: That's right. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: You preferred the teaching? Adam Kriegel: Well, Diana Kriegel: The art. Adam Kriegel: at, at that stage, yes. Barbara Blackman: And um, then from ah, the secondary school teaching you went to the school um, the art school. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Um, did you find it less exciting working with young adults and adults? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Much, much less exciting. Much less. But of course it's a higher standard and generally speaking I was, you know, trying to become a permanent teacher but not, not so good luck. And I, I went back to the orchestra, wasn't I? Didn't I? Diana Kriegel: For a while I think. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Anyway … Diana Kriegel: There was another interesting ah, part when you were the, working at the School of Architecture. You know the, Adam Kriegel: What? Diana Kriegel: in town planning. Adam Kriegel: I don't … Diana Kriegel: That's interesting. The town planning part. When you were teaching the arts to the town planning students. Adam Kriegel: Oh, yes, yes. At one stage ah, the teacher of ah, of Diana Kriegel: Town planning. Adam Kriegel: Beg your pardon? Diana Kriegel: Town planning. Adam Kriegel: Town planning. Asked me, that was on the recommendation of the School of Arts to teach the ah, the students of town planning, to teach them art so they have Diana Kriegel: Art appreciation. Adam Kriegel: an idea of art, you see, in town planning. So that was … the only thing is that when I asked them to say and learn and write some essays, essays about say the fashion is, how they could be. They would just copy from the book. They copy from the book and … well even that was, wasn't it, better than nothing. Barbara Blackman: But um, did you get better results from them after a while? Adam Kriegel: Better result than? Barbara Blackman: Ah, you know, how shall I put it? Did you make headway with your town planning people to get them more say actively um … Adam Kriegel: Oh, I, I have so, I have. I mean they didn't become great artists but I get them, Diana Kriegel: No, but they were always interested. Adam Kriegel: I get them interested in art. Diana Kriegel: They used to come and visit you and go up in the studio and talk to you. They were interested in art. Adam Kriegel: Yes, yes. Naturally. Barbara Blackman: So you had a big studio? By this time you'd moved house, had you? Adam Kriegel: Our, we had a lovely studio in Adelaide, yes. Big … Barbara Blackman: Where-, whereabouts was that? Adam Kriegel: High Street. Diana Kriegel: Hugh. Hugh Street. Torrens, Hugh Street, Torrens Park. Adam Kriegel: Hugh Street. Hugh Street, yes. Barbara Blackman: Hugh Street where? Diana Kriegel: Torrens Park. Foothills. Adam Kriegel: Beautiful view. A studio as big as the interior this size rooms. Built to our specifications. Because when we … Barbara Blackman: You built it? Adam Kriegel: Well, not I did. But ah, I Diana Kriegel: Not personally. Had built. Adam Kriegel: told them what to build. And when we bought the house it was [indecipherable]. you see. Unfinished. And so that was very ah, good to, to build to your own specification. Big windows. Ah, when I say big windows, it was half of the wall. On one side, you know and the other side. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. So you had very good natural light? Adam Kriegel: Very good natural light, yes. Barbara Blackman: Um, so then you were teaching at the art school for quite a while? Adam Kriegel: How long? A few months I think. Diana Kriegel: It wasn't all that long. Adam Kriegel: Yeah. Diana Kriegel: It was un-, just under the year. I think. Adam Kriegel: Oh, under the year. Barbara Blackman: And, and you were teaching um, history of art? Or just practise? Adam Kriegel: No. Painting. Painting. Barbara Blackman: Just painting itself? Adam Kriegel: Yes, painting. Yes. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. M'mm. Um, would you like to name any students that were outstanding then? Adam Kriegel: No. Barbara Blackman: No? Adam Kriegel: No. I, I didn't know even their names. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Did you um, go into the landscape? Do you paint landscape at all? Adam Kriegel: Ha. Landscape. Well I have nothing against landscape. For example, if you want to reproduce landscape, you must take the trees and the, and the koalas and the sky and everything and somehow sticks, stick them on a picture. And I, I do not believe in the presentation of art, do you understand that or not? For example, until Cézanne, say, Cézanne, art was a presentation art. In other words, even Rembrandt was trying to paint portraits from sitters who sat for him. Because it was, photography was not known yet, but beginning from the impressionists ah, art ceased to be the presentation. It does not present anything, it presents something. It presents itself. And this is the great lesson that Cézanne taught us. You see. And he was, to my mind, he was not a very good painter but he was a great ah, a great scholar so to say, you know. To teach that, that representing something as a, as a job is out. There is no need to represent somebody or something. If we want that, they have a camera to do it. Event: Interview Paused Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:39 Adam Kriegel: … a little more involved? Barbara Blackman: A little more. Tape two, side two. Barbara Blackman talking with Adam Kriegel. Um, I'd like to pursue ah, the French Revolution because obviously that came out of very powerful feelings and a very sustained interest in that period. When did you exhibit these? And ha-, you know, have you painted several exhibitions of the French Revolution? Adam Kriegel: Ah, two. Two, two exhibitions. One was some, some eight years ago. Nine years ago. In, in Adelaide. Barbara Blackman: And where was that exhibited? Adam Kriegel: Oh, at ah, was Greenhill Galleries. Greenhill Galleries. Yes? Barbara Blackman: Greenhill, yes. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Ah, that was one. And now this is the second one. Barbara Blackman: What do you mean 'This is the second one'? Adam Kriegel: Ah, I, I am scheduled to show this next year, early next year. Barbara Blackman: Early next year? In Melbourne? Adam Kriegel: In, in Melbourne, yes. Barbara Blackman: But they're, they're paintings you've done since the Greenhill? Adam Kriegel: Yes. All new paintings. Barbara Blackman: Um, did you sell many of those paintings? Or have you retained most of them? Adam Kriegel: I sold quite a lot. Barbara Blackman: Did you sell to public collections? Are there some of your works in public collections? Adam Kriegel: There are, yes. But not, not this French Revolution. Others are. Yeah. In Melbourne, in, I have um, in ah … Barbara Blackman: Um, in, do you have some work in the National Gallery in Canberra? Adam Kriegel: I have. Well there is some new, I don't know. But ah, it is a Van Gogh poster also. Yeah. Barbara Blackman: Just one? Adam Kriegel: Just one, yes. Barbara Blackman: Can you tell me anything especially about that one? Adam Kriegel: Well, I don't know what to say. It's a portrait of a head of an old man who thought he was young when he died but ah, it doesn't matter to me. And obviously the only, it's just, just a picture. It's impo-, impossible to describe it. It sounds ridiculous really. Barbara Blackman: Yes. No. I'm just wondering if there was some particular um, incident in his biography that um, related to that picture. Adam Kriegel: No. I, I do not think that paint any particular Barbara Blackman: As directly as that. Adam Kriegel: ah, incident. It's just, it's just a portrait of a, of a man who sort of falls to pieces, who, who just ah, there's interesting that he was a sort of a, a madman. Ah, sometimes he, he was very, very good artist but he also was a megalomaniac. he was a sort of a, how do you call these people who begin in, who think they are different personalities? Diana Kriegel: Schizophrenic? Adam Kriegel: Schizophrenic, yes. Something like that. Barbara Blackman: Um, now, do you have ah, work in the State Gallery of South Australia? Adam Kriegel: Yes, I have two, I have two. One ah, at very early in the piece I became interested in Broken Hill. At that time Broken Hill was an interesting place with the big ah, with the old mines and old houses. It just had a sort of chemical look about it, you know. And I had one of those called, it took, even the tunnel is, tells you about it. It's the line of water. Line of wal-, water. And the second … Barbara Blackman: Well can you tell me anything more about that picture? When, when it was painted and … Adam Kriegel: It was actually painted during one ah, one visit over there. When I come Barbara Blackman: To Broken Hill? Adam Kriegel: to Broken Hill, yes. Barbara Blackman: You painted it after you came back? Adam Kriegel: No. It was on the, on the spot. Barbara Blackman: Painted while you were there? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Really? Adam Kriegel: Yes. At one stage somebody, I can't, oh, April or something asked a few artists from Adelaide to go to Broken Hill and to paint Broken Hill. And then they published this, these sort of pictures. Diana Kriegel: Five artists were selected. Barbara Blackman: What and, and this was published in the newspaper, was it? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Diana Kriegel: M'mm. Barbara Blackman: The Advertiser? Adam Kriegel: Ah, no, it was some-, something else. I can't remember. It was so long ago you see. I told you. Diana Kriegel: Well we'll find out … Adam Kriegel: Very long ago. And the second picture was [indecipherable]. one and it is a head. Head of—at the time I did maybe I called it 'Head of Marat.' It has a bandage over the head and some else. But I just called it 'Head' simply. Barbara Blackman: And when was that done? Adam Kriegel: Well oh, about 12, 13 years ago. Barbara Blackman: In Victoria, does Victoria have any of your work? Adam Kriegel: No. No. It hasn't ah, no. Nobody else, I think Perth some, has something. Diana Kriegel: Not in the gallery. Institute of Technology. Adam Kriegel: Not in a gallery. In a … Barbara Blackman: In, at WAIT Institute? Which is now a university. Diana Kriegel: Is that ah … Barbara Blackman: Yes. Diana Kriegel: So it was called Institute of Technology. Barbara Blackman: That's right. It's, it's now a university—Curtin University. Adam Kriegel: So they have … Barbara Blackman: What do they have? Adam Kriegel: A very beautiful drawing. Very interesting, imaginative drawing there, a Van Gogh also. They bought from an exhibition as well, yes? Diana Kriegel: No. No. Adam Kriegel: Really? Diana Kriegel: From, from Perth. It was ah … Adam Kriegel: No. I remember send it over to them. Diana Kriegel: Do you? Oh, okay. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: Um, any others in public collections? Now you have one in the Hamilton Regional Gallery. Adam Kriegel: That's correct. Yes. Barbara Blackman: What is that? Adam Kriegel: Also a Van Gogh, yeah? Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: Van Gogh. I had … which I … Barbara Blackman: A painting? Adam Kriegel: A painting, yes but … That's all. Barbara Blackman: That's all? Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: So Sydney doesn't have anything yet? Adam Kriegel: Not yet. But I hope in the future life that I have international. Barbara Blackman: So ah, you've just um, currently giving me the invitation to an exhibition that opens this Saturday. Um, a group exhibition at a new gallery in um, Fitzroy. And you're going to have then a one-man exhibition at that gallery? Adam Kriegel: At that gallery, yes. Barbara Blackman: And that will be of what? Of Fre-, of your French Revolution … Adam Kriegel: French Revolution mainly. Barbara Blackman: And when will that be? Adam Kriegel: Oh, I don't know when the … next year. Diana Kriegel: Early a-, '89. The first half, that's as much as we have. Barbara Blackman: And have you, have you finished those pictures now? Adam Kriegel: Oh, I have finished. Look to … Barbara Blackman: M'mm. So um, are you working regularly now? Adam Kriegel: Not regularly. When the spirit moves me. When the spirit moves me. Barbara Blackman: How often does the spirit move you? Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: Well, that depends. That depends. You know, I, I don't work from nine to five and things like that. Sometimes I don't do a thing for weeks and then I can paint even two pictures a day. Diana Kriegel: That's not true. You never sit up away from it for weeks. But anyway … Adam Kriegel: But see, you see, I must have a, some … Diana Kriegel: A goal. Adam Kriegel: Eh? Diana Kriegel: A goal. Adam Kriegel: More than that. A, encouragement. A … well, the whole situation, you know. It's not situation really but it is something interests me. Barbara Blackman: And what about playing the violin now? Adam Kriegel: No, no. Out. I can't. Barbara Blackman: You can't? Why not? Adam Kriegel: Because my right hand is immobilised. Diana Kriegel: He doesn't have the coordination. Since the operation he doesn't have coordination on the right side. Barbara Blackman: So you ha-, see, I don't know anything about the operation. Diana Kriegel: Oh, sorry. Adam Kriegel: I forgot to tell you that I even can't work. Diana Kriegel: Well … Adam Kriegel: Except very slowly and painfully. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. And this is because of what? Adam Kriegel: Of the operation. Barbara Blackman: For what? What was the operation for? Adam Kriegel: Ah, removal … Diana Kriegel: Acoustic neuroma. Adam Kriegel: Acoustic neuroma, yes. Barbara Blackman: Oh. And that's sad. Adam Kriegel: But ah, you know, you are, you told me about, something about medicine, yes? Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: Well, that is very curious because since that operation, when I paint my left hand only, I paint better. Barbara Blackman: You paint just with your left hand? Adam Kriegel: I paint better. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. When was this? When did this happen—this operation? Adam Kriegel: About '87 or … Diana Kriegel: The fir-, no, no, we're here eight and that was just, that's your second one already in the three years. So it's just over 10 years that he had it. And we came here about eight years ago and it had ah, gone again. The operation wasn't done properly and it grew again and so he had it done a second time. Adam Kriegel: So … Diana Kriegel: And between the first and the second, although he was never feeling a well man Adam Kriegel: Yes. Diana Kriegel: he didn't have the side effects that he has now, simply because the … Adam Kriegel: But, but that's beside the point. Listen, what I want to say is that there's some mysterious connection between our hands and our brain—as you probably know. And the faces I paint with my left hand makes my painting more, well, better. Better in every way. Barbara Blackman: How do you mean better? Adam Kriegel: Ah, first of all, better in the sense the line is better. Diana Kriegel: Freedom. Adam Kriegel: The, the composition is better. Ah, it is also more, made meaningful. You know. More meaningful. Ah, I can't explain what it is that makes something good and something better. It's just that. Event: Coughs Barbara Blackman: Um, um … Adam Kriegel: The, the human brain consists of two halves. I don't need to tell you that. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Adam Kriegel: And the two halves are completely different. One half is well, is concerned with arts and music, literature, poetry, et cetera. And the other half Diana Kriegel: Science. Adam Kriegel: is more science, mathematics et cetera. Well, the fact that I act with my left hand makes me connect with the right part of the brain which is literature, art, music and so on. And this is the crux of the matter. Barbara Blackman: Um, how long is it since you've painted a self-portrait? Adam Kriegel: Ha. That, that, the first one, the first was Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Event: Coughs Adam Kriegel: '39. Barbara Blackman: But the la-, the most recent one? Adam Kriegel: It is like that. I've painted a series of self-portraits—maybe five or six—ah, about 15 years ago. At that time I was not well, you know? This is probably was, I, people interested in myself. Otherwise I'm not ah, very photogenic, let's say. You know? But ah, when I wasn't well I had a sort of pale complexion. Some, some misery, et cetera and this was interesting. So I made that. But from this portrait I made other portraits and the other portraits although they are new, were, they are different. Each time I repeat them, I made them a little different. And so it's just impossible to answer your question. Diana Kriegel: But you worked, you know, even recently, haven't you? In the last couple of years. Adam Kriegel: Well that's what I say. Diana Kriegel: Yes, yes. Adam Kriegel: And you know, sometimes people ask me, 'How long did it take you to, to paint this picture?' And I say, 'Fifteen years.' And, and that they didn't say I'm sort of, trying to pull their leg. But it's not so. That's what I began to, to do it. I made sketches. I made pictures which they didn't satisfy me and I repeat again and again. You see what I mean? Next time it is more rich. Barbara Blackman: Now when you paint so intensely into the human visage, as you, as you do, you … Adam Kriegel: Human what? Human? Barbara Blackman: Visage. Adam Kriegel: Visage. Yes. Visage. Barbara Blackman: Ah, as you do with Van Gogh and the French Revolution. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: It's obviously also going very deeply into you and your painful experiences. Is, is it um, a very powerful experience to you while you are painting these things? Adam Kriegel: This is very interesting questions, there was, was and which I want to answer truthfully. It doesn't bo-, bother me why, my … it doesn't bother me one little bit. Because the vis-, as you say, visage, visage or visage, ah, comes out in spite of myself. I don't know about it. For this purpose I very often paint my features upside down so as not to be aware of what I am doing. And by some mystery which I can't explain and I am not trying to explain, everything comes right. Even the anatomy comes right. Do you know what I mean by that? Even what I mean is maybe it's not a classical anatomy. Maybe not ah, sort of the way they teach you at school. But it is credible. It is me-, meaningful. Barbara Blackman: Do you feel a sense of um, relief after you've finished such a painting? Adam Kriegel: Oh, I, I'm not, I don't know. I don't know. I feel very satisfied. Very happy, you know. When I paint a picture which other people look depressing, I, I'm very happy. Very joyful that I have such a beautiful picture. You see? And the fact that this represents ah, this or that subject, it doesn't worry me one little bit. Barbara Blackman: Do you like to keep these pictures with you ah, after you've painted them? Do you like to … Adam Kriegel: Definitely. But not all. Not all. But about ah, maybe 10 per cent of pictures I don't want to part with. Barbara Blackman: So what pictures do you have on the walls of your house? Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: Well, behind you I have a picture of Charlotte Corday. This is the girl who killed Marat. Ah, next to it, there's a drawing—black on white drawing—of, of somebody with a turban which I think is maybe Marat. Diana Kriegel: Marat. Adam Kriegel: Ah, on the same wall I have a picture—very important—by a, a lady who paints, yes. Diana Kriegel: Lidia. Adam Kriegel: Lidia Groblicka. Diana Kriegel: From Adelaide. Adam Kriegel: And she's a marvellous artis. And it represents a tree with human heads—Polish heads all, probably. She doesn't ah—like me—she, that's not what she paints. Diana Kriegel: It's a lino cut. Adam Kriegel: When I told her that the heads are Polish heads, she took offence. Barbara Blackman: She is Polish? Yes. Adam Kriegel: She's Polish. Ah, next to it I have, on the other wall, a picture—fairly large—which is by Mervyn Smith. He is the … Diana Kriegel: Do you know him? From Adelaide? Where he's [indecipherable]. Barbara Blackman: Yes. Adam Kriegel: You know, you know Mervyn? Diana Kriegel: It's a blossom tree with a sun look about it. Adam Kriegel: A sort of Japanesey-looking. Ah and next to this picture, the same wall, a picture of Paganini. And this is a curious thing. Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: I must ex-, ah, tell … Barbara Blackman: You painted, this is a picture of yours—the Paganini? Adam Kriegel: Yeah. Well I'll tell you: once I decided to sell all my music. So we had a man who come and he bought the lot. Ah, after, and he noticed the picture and he said, 'You might, you might be interested to know that I have an engraving of Paganini which was drawn at the time.' In other words is like a photograph. Photograph. And he gave me this … Diana Kriegel: He sent you a copy. Adam Kriegel: Yeah. And it so happens that this picture on the wall is very much like the picture he gave me. Which is a very curious coincidence, don't you think? Diana Kriegel: Recently and just from imagination. Barbara Blackman: Yes, but you did this picture then before you saw his … Diana Kriegel: Oh, sure. He saw the picture and this inspired him to send this original thing later. Barbara Blackman: I see, yes. So that, that is extraordinary. Yes. Adam Kriegel: Paganini was a, a curious sort of individual. And he, his attitude was so special that he couldn't possibly copy it, you know—without seeing. But this attitude of my picture is almost exactly the same. Diana Kriegel: Well you got some idea from books that you'd read. Adam Kriegel: Well I got naturally a book of, I, I, I got the idea but not the picture. Diana Kriegel: No, of course not. No. Adam Kriegel: Yes. Barbara Blackman: So that was in your imagination? Adam Kriegel: Imagination. Yes. And there's another strange occurrence, you know, something which shows that sometimes you paint as if, as if under dictation of somebody. Or something. These things. Barbara Blackman: So is that all? Have we gone right round the walls? Adam Kriegel: Oh, yes well, next to the wall, here, here on your right wall … Diana Kriegel: On the left. On Barbara's left, you know. Adam Kriegel: On, on the left, yes, I have a picture of two boys, they can be boys. It's a, it's a picture which is partly collage. And it presents the boys sort of like that. Diana Kriegel: Embracing. Adam Kriegel: Embracing. And because this picture represents me and I say my brother. Ah, it can be anybody but, but because of this sort of feeling in that picture, I don't want to part with it. Barbara Blackman: When did you paint that? Adam Kriegel: Oh, that was a few years ago. And that's all. Barbara Blackman: And elsewhere in your house, you have other pictures of yours? Adam Kriegel: Yes. I have. Barbara Blackman: All through the house? Adam Kriegel: Well, different pictures. Mine, somebody else's. Different pictures. But I can't describe them. Barbara Blackman: They're all … Event: Laughs Adam Kriegel: No. Barbara Blackman: Um, has anybody painted your portrait? Adam Kriegel: No. I'm not remarkable. I just tell you, in, when I lived in Bialystok and because I was a sort of a wonder kid, you know, Diana Kriegel: [indecipherable]. Adam Kriegel: ah, a local artist, his name was Rozenecki, this fellow. And he decided to paint my portrait. And he painted it, I never saw him finish that portrait—I am not surprised. He perished, that fellow. Barbara Blackman: Um, have you kept good records of your paintings? And have you got many photographs of your paintings, as you go along? Adam Kriegel: I have some photos, yes. Barbara Blackman: And you kept a good record of your exhibitions and press cuttings? Adam Kriegel: No. Not at all. Not at all. Diana Kriegel: That's not right. Adam Kriegel: Every time when it comes to publicity, you get [indecipherable]. you got this price, that price. I couldn't, I couldn't remember at all. Don't know. Barbara Blackman: What about keeping diaries or writing letters? Is that um … Adam Kriegel: I can't write, you see. Ah, my wife Barbara Blackman: No, but in, Adam Kriegel: Diana writes for me. But … Barbara Blackman: But I mean in the past, when you've been able to write. Diana Kriegel: Well he's never been … Adam Kriegel: Oh, never, never that. Never have time to do this. Barbara Blackman: Have you been back to Poland? Adam Kriegel: No. Not since. Barbara Blackman: Do you want to say anything else in general about um, your art? About the, other people's painting around you. Do you like going to exhibitions and seeing other people's paintings? Adam Kriegel: Well now I am not very mobile you see so I am not going often to exhibitions. But generally speaking I am familiar with other people's paintings through books, you see. Of course you can't see, but I have a large ah, selection of books on art, on Van Gogh, on Chagall, of Monet, of Picasso and so on. Barbara Blackman: And, and of Australian painters? Are there some painters whose work you like? Adam Kriegel: I, I, oh, [indecipherable]. I like ah, Dobell very much. I like ah, Tucker. I like ah, sometimes—not all but sometimes—what is the name of the old man? Always connected with Dobell. Boyd. I like Boyd very much. Barbara Blackman: Arthur Boyd? Adam Kriegel: Arthur Boyd as well. And I, I do not like very much ah, sort of [indecipherable]. you know. For example ah, all the Australian impressionists ah, bore me to death. You know? They, of course they are nice pictures but they're so boring. Ah, and because precisely in those days you, you got news from abroad with ah, with, after 20 years or so when ah, in France for example and the rest of the world impressionists were already sort of dis-, ah, defunct so to say ah, 20 or so years are going, you got this sort of Streeton and um, ah, well I can't remember, remember the names of all these ah, Heidelberg Schools are called. Barbara Blackman: M'mm. Um, are you a great reader? Do you read a lot? Adam Kriegel: Ah, yes. As, as, as far as I can. You see, among my other ah, def-, defects is the, is my eye. My, my right eye is affected Diana Kriegel: That's another side effect of … Adam Kriegel: by my operation. And so I can't watch much television. I can't read much. But whenever I can I am using a magnifying glass, I do read, yes. Diana Kriegel: But years ago, I mean before the operation, he was an active reader. Adam Kriegel: Oh, I always like … Barbara Blackman: What, what sort of areas did you, did your in-, reading interests lie? Adam Kriegel: Oh, well, all sorts of areas. Of course in music I … Diana Kriegel: Not fiction. Adam Kriegel: In music I was very interested in many things. Above all ah, the ornaments in eighteenth, seventeenth century music. And because of that actually I could ah, I could sort of swing to the war years, when I was ah, busy arranging many things from figures to bass. But … Barbara Blackman: But what about contemporary music? Twentieth century music? Adam Kriegel: Ah, twentieth century music I, I must tell you that all that mechanical music that we hear these days, and even concert music and so on, I don't yet, not yet, used to it. Barbara Blackman: Now, now your painting doesn't ah, closely relate to your music? Adam Kriegel: In painting, I am much more progressive than in music. For example, I like certain modern paintings which most people say, 'What is it?' You know? But I like them. In music on the other hand, a piece of Schoenberg or Alban Berg or somebody contemporary like that ah, I can't hear much of it. And in fact I find that contemporary music—art I contemporary I mean—is very much related to naturalis-, naturalism, what they consider naturalism in art. Because all it does is to imitate ah, noises, sounds that you find in life, you know. Sounds of the sea and the ah, every, everything is just concurred. It's, it's as if ah, you take a landscape and you stick it to ah, on a canvas. That wasn't possible, is it? And, and that is the feeling that I have when I hear music by contemporary artists. But I, I don't want to give the impression that I dislike ah, contemporary music. On the contrary, I like Debussy, I like Ravel. But they are not contemporary, are they? Barbara Blackman: Are there, is there anything you feel you would like to say that I haven't asked you about? Adam Kriegel: No, you asked me such a lot of things. Event: Laughs Barbara Blackman: I have indeed. Well um, thank you very much and on behalf of um, the National, the Director-General of the National Library um, your interview is very much appreciated. Thank you. Event: End of Interview End of transcript