--------------------------------------------------------------- ._________. ||||||||| NATIONAL LIBRARY Oral History Transcripts IIIIIIIII OF AUSTRALIA /=========\ --------------------------------------------------------------- Title: A.S. Luchetti interviewed by Andrew Moore in the Parliament's bicentenary oral history project [sound recording]. Date Issued: 11 August 1983 Summary: Luchetti speaks of his early life; the mine owners of Lithgow; conscription referenda; George Pearce; Ben Chifley; the Russian Revolution of 1917; Labor principles; Labor and communism; the 1930 depression; unemployment in Lithgow; the Lang government; seat of Macquarie, 1934 and 1937 elections; attitude to mining uranium; split in Labor Party; his criticism of multinationals; about Howard Beale; Eric Harrision; Norman Makin; IPU conference; Vietnam; working women; Labor Party in government. Restrictions: Access open for research, personal copies and public use. Location: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-217517250 Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:00 Summary: AS Luchetti Interviewed by Andrew Moore. Tape One. Keywords: Anthony Sylvester (Tony, AS) Luchetti, Andrew Moore, Parliament's Bicentenary Oral History Project, Lithgow, Commonwealth Parliamentary Library Andrew Moore: This is an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti. Mr Luchetti will be speaking with me, Andrew Moore, for the oral history project conducted by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the Parliament's bicentenary publications project. On behalf of the parliamentary librarian, I would like to thank you for agreeing to participate in this program. Mr Luchetti, you do understand that copyright is shared by you and the Australian Commonwealth Parliamentary Library? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, I do. Andrew Moore: This being so, may we have your permission to make a transcript of this recording? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Andrew Moore: We hope you will speak as frankly as possible, knowing that neither tapes nor any transcripts produced from them will be released without your authority. This interviewing is taking place in Lithgow on 11 August 1983. Event: Interview Paused At time 00:00:50 Summary: Early life in Newnes, the poverty in a mining town, and why he became a parliamentarian. Keywords: Federal Member for Macquarie, shale oil, Newnes Event: Interview Paused Andrew Moore: Mr Luchetti, can we begin with the issue of your own political socialisation? What were the forces at work in your own education? What made you become a parliamentarian? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, ah Andrew, I'd be pleased to do that and looking back over 24 years and 4 months as the federal members for the electorate of Macquarie, my mind instinctively goes back to my boyhood, my life in a mining village. The people who, with whom I lived—our family, our friends—and the lives of the people and the shale oil centre of Newnes. It was a busy place where an industry was being developed. There were problems for people. There were the problems of inequality where the people who worked in the mines in the main lived in very primitive type of accommodation. Slab houses, some with bark roof, others with ant bed floor. And ah v-, very few means of giving them comfortable living while the managerial people had better class of houses and, and all of these matters seemed to register in my mind that there was something that was not fair, that some people who've worked hard to help them make an industry develop, to grow, to thrive, that they had very inferior type of life to other people. And this was only a small matter perhaps to those who lived there but yet it was a problem. Andrew Moore: And what were c-, ah living conditions like at Newnes? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The living conditions were primitive for most people because there were none of the modern conveniences. Mothers cooked their food in camp ovens, baked the bread, washed in buckets, kerosene tins on open fires with scrubbing b-, ah boards—they tried to keep the clothes clean. They had all of the difficulties imaginable and ah none of the refinements that some people had and which pretty well everyone has the good fortune to have today. Andrew Moore: M'mm. I remember when you, in your manuscript when you were talking about what acquainted you with some of the realities of day-to-day life that, when you were delivering milk, you saw the houses of the people and how they differed. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the, these were the things that really stirred my feelings in regard to politics and the need for reform. The matter of doing something. And I was just unhappy that people had not taken more positive role in trying to deal with the urgent problems of, to remedy injustice. And I was encouraged in my thought because my father was an official of the Wolgan Miners Lodge, he was a mining union office, he worked hard and in fact, died from hard work and cancer as recorded on his death certifi-, certificate. He was a powerful man, well-built but yet he died at an early age and I can see him now in my mind's eye, after coming home from work, trudging from the work with boyangs on his trousers, wet from the water in the mine. To come home, to be stripped, get into a bathtub in front of the fire, to be washed and my mother to be washing his back in, in a miner's home. At time 00:03:24 Summary: Growing up a miner's son, and a colourful description of challenges facing mining families at the time. Keywords: Wolgan Valley, Miners' Lodge, union official, Scotland, alcoholism A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the, these were the things that really stirred my feelings in regard to politics and the need for reform. The matter of doing something. And I was just unhappy that people had not taken more positive role in trying to deal with the urgent problems of, to remedy injustice. And I was encouraged in my thought because my father was an official of the Wolgan Miners Lodge, he was a mining union office, he worked hard and in fact, died from hard work and cancer as recorded on his death certifi-, certificate. He was a powerful man, well-built but yet he died at an early age and I can see him now in my mind's eye, after coming home from work, trudging from the work with boyangs on his trousers, wet from the water in the mine. To come home, to be stripped, get into a bathtub in front of the fire, to be washed and my mother to be washing his back in, in a miner's home. These were the, this is a picture that I had and I think, too, Andrew, of other people who worked in the industry. Their lives, their problem. I, and some of the men perhaps drank too much. There were many Scotsmen there who liked their scotch whiskey and I think of one man who was a friend of my father who occasionally become a m-, heavily intoxicated and in his drunken stupor would be wondering around at night saying: 'The world is made of rags, bags, bones and bottles.' When one think of the miners' camp: 'rags, bags, bones and bottle'. Bones from the shin of beef, tins from the tines of jam or herrings and tomato sauce or bully beef and bottles from the pub which contained ah various alcoholic drinks. And ah for the vin-, vinegar and things needed in the home of kerosene and so on. All of this seemed to fit into the picture and my father's old friend who drank to excess, seemed to sum up a great problem there: 'bags and bones and bottles.' And this was his words in a drunken stupor. But the problems were great but yet there was a revival among people which made me feel that there was hope for um everyone if they would apply themselves to the simple matter of having confidence in themselves and trying to deal politically with problems. The trade union movement had agreed to take a keen interest in the ah political affairs of the country round about the turn of the century. And I was born in 1904 and I seemed to come into politics as a boy in this new wave of enthusiasm and in my earliest days, I can remember some of the old miners and people and a neighbour of ours with a sign up on his mining hut: 'Vote one: James Dooley.' And Dooley was the Labor candidate who defeated Hurley, the Liberal candidate for the seat of Hartley. And ah how Dooley won. Dooley went on, James Dooley, to become chief secretary speaker and premier of the state of New South Wales. And he had come from this district. And in this district, there was this throbbing life among the people of hope, of ah state ownership, socialisation, getting on with the job of using the resources of Australia for the wellbeing of the people of Australia and for justice and equality. And these same people—particularly those in the mines in the industry—had formed cooperative societies and we had one in our own village. At time 00:06:09 Summary: His birth in 1904, how he saw working class politics as the hope for the people, and Dooley's win. Keywords: Australian Labor Party (ALP), James Thomas Dooley, John Hurley, Liberal Party of Australia, Division of Hartley, Premier of NSW, state ownership A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And ah how Dooley won. Dooley went on, James Dooley, to become chief secretary speaker and premier of the state of New South Wales. And he had come from this district. And in this district, there was this throbbing life among the people of hope, of ah state ownership, socialisation, getting on with the job of using the resources of Australia for the wellbeing of the people of Australia and for justice and equality. And these same people—particularly those in the mines in the industry—had formed cooperative societies and we had one in our own village. Lithgow had a bloom in and boom in cooperative society and this was a movement going on, a movement brought to Australia from England, which was of great value in giving people an opportunity to buy at the right price, get quality goods and this appealed to me as something that was worthwhile. And the same miners had engaged in other activities too. In establishing a trades hall at Lithgow, a workmen's club at Lithgow—one of the earliest established in the history of Australia. All of these things showed that there was a cohesion, ah a feeling of among people: if we unite, we can do things for the advancement of our fellows and the people generally. And in our home, my father would be talking: 'Well, we want to see the children have a better deal, a fairer go than what we have had and we want better education and we want to see that hospitals and medical care will be available.' And all of these thoughts were the new thoughts and all, they were old thoughts: they were given new life by the people of that period. And this is what a matter that we got me involved in thinking of politics, and as a small boy, I can recall coming home from school to go to a miners' meeting and to listen to what the miners official was saying about conditions in the mine—how they needed to be improved. Ah you heard, on one occasion, I attended a public meeting addressed by a personality well known, Donald Grant, later a senator in New South Wales, who had recently been discharged from gaol o-, after being held there for some time and he gave a talk about his period in gaol and the conditions of the time. I also went to a political meeting addressed by a Liberal and he ah was advancing his candidature and a man in the audience had accused him of travelling with a person who had foully deserted his regiment at the landing of Gallipoli. And I thought: 'My goodness, these people are saying important things!' And this was the sort of life that was bubbling and eddying through the countryside at the time. At time 00:09:20 Summary: More of his boyhood memories including the political climate amongst miners in Lithgow and his growing interest in reform. Keywords: Donald Grant, Gallipoli, Wales, Cornwall, Robert Burns (poet) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And I thought: 'My goodness, these people are saying important things!' And this was the sort of life that was bubbling and eddying through the countryside at the time. Andrew Moore: It's an unusual place, Lithgow, in that respect, isn't it? 'Cause obviously in the community at large, conservative values are the more dominant ones but in this little community, it's very much the ideals and aspirations of the labour movement, which makes me wonder about your recollections of the entrepreneurs—the mine owners and those sorts of people. I mean, were they harsh and oppressive people? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, ah the problem seemed to be, Andrew, that we imported, ah from overseas, types of people who continued the type of lives they led overseas. The employer—the company people—seemed to remain dedicated, company people, the profits of the company. And they did all in their power to ah see to it that the company would thrive and ah prosper and the miners, on the other hand, had brought to this country the sturdy independence from Northern England, from Wales and Cornwall and Scotland, traditions of ah trade unionism, of democracy and ever so many of the miners would recite to you passages from Bobby Burns: 'Man's inhumanity to man make countless thousands mourn … ' and so on. They could recite these passages to you and they were imbued with the idea of reform and they bought this reform movement with them. There's certainly been a balancing out over the years o-, in regard to these matters. There's a, a different attitude, perhaps, today. It is not so sharp, it is not so noticeable. Conditions have improved so tremendously. When I think of the great difficulty to get an eight-hour day that the old p-, hands in the trade union movement had. To get an eight-hour day worked over five and a, and a half days a week. Five full days and then half a day on Saturday. The miners finally won the, the, from ah, the, the rate of ah, ah an eight-hour day. From pi-, ah from the ah mine mount to the discharge from the pit. And so it was for them that they had again. But people engaged in other jobs did not share quite well as well. Despite the fact that the miners had their problems—and as I reported in a talk I gave on Newnes one time ah to the Lithgow Historical Society—how the miners had to strike to get 12 shillings a day for brushing in the pit, a most dangerous occupation, most difficult occupation. And ah … Andrew Moore: Perhaps you better explain exactly what that is … At time 00:12:21 Summary: Issues of pay and conditions facing miners, his father's run in with the mine owner, and a man who became successful despite adversity. Keywords: Mr Fell, Harry Stacey, education, pupil teaching, university, Airlie, Torbayne, Fred Maxwell, Sydney Andrew Moore: Perhaps you better explain exactly what that is … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And this job of ah brushing is a matter of cleaning up the roof of the mine from all the ah loose ah bluestone and other matter and have timber erected to try to secure the roof of the mine. Ah a most dangerous occupation. Andrew Moore: Apart from anything else, you get absolutely black in the process. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah oh, ah black and wet and ah very, very dirty. There was no doubt about it. And ah in those days there were not the provision today as the bathroom as the pit or anything like that. And there was not the mechanical devices, there was not the scientific aids that we have at the present time. Andrew Moore: Your father had a bit of a run-in, didn't he, with Mr Furlow, the mine owner? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh yes, there was a deputation, ah my father led a deputation about this, and one of his mates, Harry Stacey, ah had a, a fellow said: 'Well, well, you don't do all that you can do, Mr Stacey.' He said: 'No,' he said, 'What I'm doing, Mr Phil, is giving you 12 shillings' worth of work—that's what I'm doing. You give us 12 shillings and I'm giving you 12 shillings' worth of work.' But those men were very good men and they were all contract workers when they were digging coal or shale. It was not a question of any laziness because those men worked very hard to get as much money as they could ah in their eight-hour day. They really set out to try to get some money to, to get a home that was worthwhile, to give their children a chance of school because there were not the number of scholarships or anything like that. And they did not, Andrew, have the good fortune that you've had to be able to go to a university and, and get a doctorate, get, get a degree. The boys and girls of those days had to work very hard to get perhaps pupil teaching or something like that. They had a most difficult time. And ah that's why the parents worked hard to see that their children were given just a little bit better opportunity than before. And it is true to say that there were people who rose through all those difficulties and ah were successful. Ah a man with whom my dad had worked at Airlie, Torbain district, who ah was quite a young man. He ah, ah studied accountancy and bookkeeping and had a very successful business in New Zealand. And Fred Maxwell, a local man from our district in Lithgow, ah Cullen Bullen area, he developed a very successful accountancy business in Sydney and did much of the work of companies and ah trade union bodies and cooperatives in our own district. Some people did, out of force of character and hard work, they managed to win through. But these were the problems that, that faced everybody … Andrew Moore: One must assume they'd also be the exceptions. At time 00:15:50 Summary: Reasons for his decision to become an active member of the ALP, and his various labouring jobs in Newnes and Lithgow. Keywords: Benzine, boilermaker, blacksmith, brickie's labourer, rigging gang, retorts, ironworks, pottery, state mine, 'Labour Daily' Andrew Moore: One must assume they'd also be the exceptions. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: They were certainly the exception, that's why they stand out as very bright stars of bright lights in the firmament of social effort and ah, and endeavour, because they were, were exception and truly. And because of all these things, at the earliest opportunity, I made up my mind to join the Labor Party and take a very practical interest in the affairs of Labor. I was not content just merely to sit back and hope that someone else would do things for me: I wanted to make a contribution myself. And I had that opportunity. Ah when I came to Lithgow to live—having worked in several places, brickworks, ironworks, state coal mine, pottery works and so on—I … Andrew Moore: What was your first job? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: My first job in Lithgow, my first job in life was tinning petrol at Newnes—benzene as we called it in those days. And I got a job when I was fifteen and eleven months and I was one of the fortunate ones because most boys left school before they were at fourteen years and mothers would often write to a teacher and ask that their son be excused from school because they were able to get them a job when they were thirteen and a half or thirteen and seven months or something. But I was able to stay till … and I could have stayed longer as far as my parents were concerned. But I left school at fifteen and eleven months and I got this job of tinning petrol. From there I went on to boilermaker's mate, blacksmith striker, brickies labourer, rigging gang, worked on the retorts at Newnes and had a rather a, a varied life down there. And to Lithgow in a brickyard, [indecipherable]. to the ironworks in the steel furnace to the pottery, to the state mine and finally a job on the Labour Daily —and when that cut out after the problems with the Labour Daily and it closed to ah, ah get ah a job as an insurance agent. Andrew Moore: I wonder if we can go back to um the general issue of political forces at work upon you. So Lithgow and working in the Newnes area was certainly an influence. I'm just wondering about your family, if, your father was a miner but was he a, a, a radical? Was he a union militant? And what about your mother? Her … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, my parents were both ah very positively Labor people, and in those days, there seemed to be no—ah in generally speaking—there seemed to be no tags of left or right or centre, they, they, they were all Labor people dedicated to the improvement of conditions of people, working hard in every possible way. My mother was too fully occupied in the home to be doing anything outside of the home because my mother gave birth to 10 children. All, all those births occurred without a doctor, just with a midwife, in a country house and ah so it was that mum—who slaved and worked because to augment the family income, we conducted a dairy and ah my mother milked up to 40 cows in the morning and quite a number in the afternoon to supply our customers. And we, the children, delivered the milk and ah had a pretty sound grounding in public relations with people in that respect. At time 00:18:00 Summary: Political forces working upon him, including having 9 siblings, his mother's hard life, and his father's union involvement as a miner. Keywords: Dairy, Miners' Miners' Federation of Australia A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, my parents were both ah very positively Labor people, and in those days, there seemed to be no—ah in generally speaking—there seemed to be no tags of left or right or centre, they, they, they were all Labor people dedicated to the improvement of conditions of people, working hard in every possible way. My mother was too fully occupied in the home to be doing anything outside of the home because my mother gave birth to 10 children. All, all those births occurred without a doctor, just with a midwife, in a country house and ah so it was that mum—who slaved and worked because to augment the family income, we conducted a dairy and ah my mother milked up to 40 cows in the morning and quite a number in the afternoon to supply our customers. And we, the children, delivered the milk and ah had a pretty sound grounding in public relations with people in that respect. And as for my dad, he'd been active in the Miners' Federation and holding a position as secretary president. His brother had been first president of the Western Miners' Federation and a family of activists in the true sense. And ah dad ah was very proud to be, was selected to go to the one big union conference in 1919 where he favoured the formation of the one big union and of the various divisions on industry basis. And in our own village—well, it was the Miners' Federation which was the strong unity in that link. Andrew Moore: Luchetti's an Italian name, so your father was Italian. Where did he come from in Italy? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah well, my father was born in Australia—born at Lowther on the way to Jenolan Caves—but his father was born in Italy at, and had come to Australia around 1850 from Ancona, ah a seaport town in the Adriatic. Ah and ah he was a most interesting man and he, too, was in a sense a radical, he was a reformer and ah his wife, my grandmother, had come from Ireland. And tragically, with a great famine and great social problem for the time, she'd virtually been starved out of Ireland because of the poverty at the time that lightened the potato and, and the rule of authority from London, had made things so oppressive, so bad that people died by the, hundreds of thousands from poverty, and many went to United States and Canada and some came to Australia. And my mother, grandma, Sarah Jennings, came to Australia. At time 00:20:01 Summary: Some background details about his grandparents, including their arrival in Australia in 1850, and how his grandmother worked for the Grant family. Keywords: Italy, Lowther, Jenolan Caves, Ancona, Adriatic, Ireland, Sarah Jennings, potato famine, United Kingdom (UK), Roman Catholic Church, John Grant, Moyne Farm, Lowther Park A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah well, my father was born in Australia—born at Lowther on the way to Jenolan Caves—but his father was born in Italy at, and had come to Australia around 1850 from Ancona, ah a seaport town in the Adriatic. Ah and ah he was a most interesting man and he, too, was in a sense a radical, he was a reformer and ah his wife, my grandmother, had come from Ireland. And tragically, with a great famine and great social problem for the time, she'd virtually been starved out of Ireland because of the poverty at the time that lightened the potato and, and the rule of authority from London, had made things so oppressive, so bad that people died by the, hundreds of thousands from poverty, and many went to United States and Canada and some came to Australia. And my mother, grandma, Sarah Jennings, came to Australia. Andrew Moore: She must have come out almost in the wake of the famous potato famine of the 1840s. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: She did. She left ah Ireland in 1849 and arrived in Sydney in 1850. And we have a copy of the letter written by a doctor who came out on the ship, ah who spoke in praiseworthy terms of the captain of the ship and some of the officers for the way they tried to look after the people on the ship. But ah as for the ship, it was a hulk, it was a very poor vessel, conditions were ve-, extremely bad and harsh on the ship and ah that ah doctor had some difficulty in getting another ship to go back to the United Kingdom because of the resentment of the fact that he had spoken out strongly ah against the owners of the ship and conditions on the ship. Mr grandmother had come to Australia in ah a Catholic Church migration scheme and went in the home of John Grant at Lowther at Moyne Farm and later to Lowther Park—well-known properties and a well-known family. And I think that the Grants themselves had originally come to this country as convicts but had raised this, ah rose to some extent over their other folk in the area and ah they provided a place for grandma. Andrew Moore: And how would she have met your grandfather? Was he … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, he came up into the district. He had been in the area twice, he came here early, went to New Zealand and had returned and met my grandmother and ah in a whimsical way, I understand she commended that she married him to get rid of him. Now that was a great Irish way of ah dealing with a problem and that was, I, I don't know the truth of that because my grandfather died in 1902 and I was born in 1904. But these were the type of people and ah an interesting thing: they were w-, it was, they were probably the first family to have a sawn timber house at Lowther—made out of sawn timber. Most of the places were round timber: saplings, slabs and so on. But my grandfather had learnt the art of being a sawyer perhaps in New Zealand ah in the timber industry there and was able to build a home at Lowther which was known by many of the old hands for his tidiness and for the r-, the, the beautiful geraniums which were planted on each side of the roadway coming down to the house. They said it was really a sheer delight. I didn't know enough about it: I left there at a very early age, although being born there, ah my memory was not quite so keen and I did need a poet's licence, really, to develop that particular [indecipherable]. At time 00:22:37 Summary: How his grandparents met, and the Irish influence on the ALP. Keywords: New Zealand (NZ), 'The Great Hunger', Presbyterian Church, Methodist Church, Baptist Church A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: But these were the type of people and ah an interesting thing: they were w-, it was, they were probably the first family to have a sawn timber house at Lowther—made out of sawn timber. Most of the places were round timber: saplings, slabs and so on. But my grandfather had learnt the art of being a sawyer perhaps in New Zealand ah in the timber industry there and was able to build a home at Lowther which was known by many of the old hands for his tidiness and for the r-, the, the beautiful geraniums which were planted on each side of the roadway coming down to the house. They said it was really a sheer delight. I didn't know enough about it: I left there at a very early age, although being born there, ah my memory was not quite so keen and I did need a poet's licence, really, to develop that particular [indecipherable]. Event: Background noise Andrew Moore: So that um aspect of your background that um is Irish gives you, enables you to have some appreciation of the extent of the Irish influence upon the Australian labour movement. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The Irish influence was extremely great. It, it was ah, ah very, very strong because the Irish came to this country with a feeling of injustice, of harshness. Of ah objection to the rule from London, from the wealthy classes of England who oppressed their poor people but also showed with greater severity their hostility ah to the Irish. And ah this was clearly revealed in ah documents and publications such as the book, The Great Hunger, which has records of what occurred at the time. And where food was sent away from people in desperate circumstances to be sold so that they might pay rent and so on. These were the difficulties. And those people came here, out here with feelings that they were going to make a, a, a great change in their way of life and try to reform the world. And they found very wonderful allies in Welshmen, Cornishmen, Scotsmen, people from the northern counties of England—in particular from the minefields and so on—and this union was very, very close in all sorts of social a-, ah reform, of better labour conditions. Lower, shorter working periods. And ah, and justice in many ways. They differed on other matters, perhaps religion would come into it that the Irish in the main were perhaps ah Catholics and the others might be ah non-conformist—Presbyterian, Baptists, Methodists. But ah on, on the main, broad issues, they were as one. And while they might have their disagreements on some religious festival, when it came to the basic issues of social reform, they were one and they worked cohesively—they worked in close union in the formation of the Labor Party. This was ah, ah, a grand thing because in the earliest days from men ah that, whose name was well known like Andrew Fischer, ah a Scotsman, ah to Tom Ryan from Queensland, of Irish origins, I'll say, Scullin in later time ah with the Irish ah influence. Ah perhaps Curtain, who had some Irish in his makeup as well. And ah, and from the early times, these ah names appeared. Brennan from Victoria. Men then like Anstee and others. All of these blended into the fabric of, of, of the Labor Party. At time 00:26:00 Summary: Character of the ALP in the early 1900s. Keywords: Andrew Fisher, Tom Ryan, James Scullin, John Curtin, Thomas Brennan, Frank Anstey A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: This was ah, ah, a grand thing because in the earliest days from men ah that, whose name was well known like Andrew Fischer, ah a Scotsman, ah to Tom Ryan from Queensland, of Irish origins, I'll say, Scullin in later time ah with the Irish ah influence. Ah perhaps Curtain, who had some Irish in his makeup as well. And ah, and from the early times, these ah names appeared. Brennan from Victoria. Men then like Anstee and others. All of these blended into the fabric of, of, of the Labor Party. At time 00:26:01 Summary: Poetic language about the character of the ALP. Keywords: Anti-conscription campaign, World War One (WW1), Henry Lawson A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: This was ah, ah, a grand thing because in the earliest days from men ah that, whose name was well known like Andrew Fischer, ah a Scotsman, ah to Tom Ryan from Queensland, of Irish origins, I'll say, Scullin in later time ah with the Irish ah influence. Ah perhaps Curtain, who had some Irish in his makeup as well. And ah, and from the early times, these ah names appeared. Brennan from Victoria. Men then like Anstee and others. All of these blended into the fabric of, of, of the Labor Party. And I often think of the Labor Party as a, a great river ah that flows in social territory and country, bringing people together with its tributaries from all sorts of places. From, some on the western side of the mountain, some on the eastern side. Some from ah gullies, some from difficult places, somewhere the rain rarely falls but then comes down on the gusher and goes over the banks and floods and, and brings some richness to the countryside because of the debris, the, the, the food in the, the water, of the ah rich leaf mould and so on. And this seems to be the story of the Labor Party. It's not always placid, it's not always even, it's not always just a delightful river, as Lawson said to ah, ah 'dance in its brim'. But to, a, a stream that rises and falls, floods and comes down and so on in all of its work, it seems to come back inside the banks, it comes back into that main stream with all its little tributaries from the hundred, thousand and one different places. And the great thing politically, as I see it, is the Labor Party must always remember that the big issues today are not so big quite often in the years ahead. And there are major issues which remain major issues, and one of these, to me, as a small boy, was the conscription campaigns in the First World War. Andrew Moore: Was your father active in the war? At time 00:28:50 Summary: How his father was an active anti-conscriptionist, and his own involvement as a boy. Keywords: 'The Blood Vote', Billy Hughes, ES Carr, Dean Talbot, Archbishop Daniel Mannix, Melbourne, 'Hughesiliers' Andrew Moore: Was your father active in the war? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: My father was very active anti-conscriptionist and I, as a boy of about ten or eleven, he, eleven years of age—I was thereabouts, I ah, oh, eleven or twelve, I was, at the time—I'd go out and putting up posters and so on. And especially that renowned publication, The Blood Vote, it was one of the finest pieces of propaganda, ah piece of publicity that had ever been produced, I believe. And of course, the—despite what had been done by the press and all the mediums of propaganda at the time—the referendum, or referendum had been defeated, and ah Hughes would had ah been expelled from the Labor Party for his stand on this, as were many others, and the member for Macquarie at the time, E.S. Carr, he was elected as a Labor member for Macquarie, and held the [indecipherable]. ah quite well. And ah he supported Hughes and he was expelled. And this was what had happened despite all of the influence on the side ah of the conscriptionist, the ah trade unionist, the people of reform, had the strength to win through. And we were ably supported by Dean Talbot who ah, whose influence from a church point of view is available, as was Archbishop Mannix in, in ah Melbourne, Victoria—because he, in those distant days, was one of the great leaders. And of course, his attitude was the Irish attitude. He was again the government. And he was again the government, as we all felt, on a very good ah cause and we all were delighted to know of his stand. Although only a boy, I, I was particularly pleased. On one occasion I can recall going along with my milk cans to deliver milk to a lady, a Mrs Rinshawl, and she said: 'Tony,' she said, 'are you pro or anti?' And for a while I had a to think very smartly to think: pro or anti … what's it mean? 'Oh,' I said, 'oh, I know what I am: I'm anti.' She said: 'And so are we—we're all anti.' So this was the sort of feeling that went around among the people. And I can recall one of our neighbours being called up under the Hughes-aliers, as they called them. Those who were called up to ah Billy Hughes, the prime min-, … Event: Interview Paused Andrew Moore: [indecipherable]. what happened as a result of cons-, of conscription referendum? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the ah, despite ah Prime Minister Hughes's keenness and determination to try to bring in conscription, he failed on each occasion. And one of the most interesting features of it all was that the soldiers themselves in the trenches were not prepared to vote to bring other people to the law front ah by conscription. They were volunteers and they accepted the fact that they were volunteers but they didn't want to have other people forced to come, to share their type of life because they were not altogether overjoyed with the, the terror, the ferocity of the war and that ah trench warfare in the First World War. At time 00:31:20 Summary: [Cut in tape]. The revival of the ALP as a result of the conscription referendum, with some comments about Hughes. Keywords: Trench warfare, WA Holman, Mr Carmichael*, Cootamundra, Tudor, Matt Charlton, AWA, Commonwealth Oil Refineries (COR) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the ah, despite ah Prime Minister Hughes's keenness and determination to try to bring in conscription, he failed on each occasion. And one of the most interesting features of it all was that the soldiers themselves in the trenches were not prepared to vote to bring other people to the law front ah by conscription. They were volunteers and they accepted the fact that they were volunteers but they didn't want to have other people forced to come, to share their type of life because they were not altogether overjoyed with the, the terror, the ferocity of the war and that ah trench warfare in the First World War. It was the most difficult time, and as a boy, I can see now what was going on and how with the Labor Party having expelled Billy Hughes and W. A. Holman, the Premier of New South Wales, silver-tongued orator, a barrister and how ah the feelings were running rather hot. How, how there was great feeling among people and I can recall going along one morning and ah a Mr Carmichael, a mine deputy, ah whom we all knew very well, calling out to some other workmen: 'Well, it's happened, Billy Holman was defeated,' and Holman had been the member for Cootamundra, if I remember clearly. And to think that Holman, this man, this gifted orator, this brilliant man, is one of the great men that the Labor Party had really doted on and thought was: 'This is one of our most brilliant sons,' and yet he was thrown out without any ceremony at all. Only with the joy and great pleasure and great happiness. And it meant a revival for the Labor Party, new life, an influx of people determined to try to make the Labor Party a more effective organisation, a more closely knit organ-, organisation. And I remember now having go-, gone to parliament, and Billy Hughes was in the house when I was there in my time and how Billy would come round and came into the caucus room on one or two occasion, and we had caricatures and, and pictures on our wall of ah old-time leaders and person, Tudor and Hughes and, and Matt Charlton and various other ones. And our, how much Hughes would have like it: to have got back into the Labor Party, to have died a Labor Party. And just let me say this—and it's not conscription—but how, at least, you could say for Hughes, he did set out to try to get some truly national organisation—AWA—owned by the people. COR—Commonwealth Oil Refineries—owned by the people, to be sold out and closed by, ah sold out, not closed, sold out virtually give away, given away to private companies, just as the handly equipment pool and so on but also, given away. And COR's destruction—I'm sorry to say I've got to retreat and go back to the old shale oil and the oil industry generally—if COR could have been saved, Glen Davis and Newnes could have been saved. Then we would have a viable sort of oil refinery and produ-, production plant and plants in Australia and we would have been able to have met our needs in a more ah effective way and we would have been able to have kept prices down to some degree. Andrew Moore: Ah going back then to 1917—just for the moment—though, speaking of Labor rats, George Pearce, later senator and Sir George Pearce, um, ah had a part to play in Lithgow Labor politics, didn't he? At time 00:35:19 Summary: Comments about George Pearce, Richard Northey and Joe Cook (with respect to ALP Lithgow). Keywords: Sir George Pearce, Lithgow Trades Hall, Richard Northey, Labour Day, 'Lithgow Mercury', Sir Joseph Cook Andrew Moore: Ah going back then to 1917—just for the moment—though, speaking of Labor rats, George Pearce, later senator and Sir George Pearce, um, ah had a part to play in Lithgow Labor politics, didn't he? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah well the most interesting thing about Sir George Pearce, ah he and another person had come from Lithgow in the name of all that's traditional and true about Labor, they had ratted. And Pearce had come to Lithgow to lay the foundation stone at the trades hall and we had a very successful trades hall here, built up by the donations, the contribution of the trade unionist. And in subsequent years, his name was obliterated. Andrew Moore: Actually erased from the … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: It was, yes. Ah, ah the, it was taken from the building and when the extensions were opened, Richard Northey—a Cornishman who had been secretary of our eight-hour-a-day, then Labour Day, six-hour and Labour Day for many years—Richard Northey was given the opportunity to lay the foundation stone and do the honours when the extension to the trades hall were to be opened. He worked at the Lithgow Mercury as a printer and he was a very interesting personality. Ah a Cornishman who ah fitted in very well the lifestyle of the people, ah of, of Lithgow. But the other person from here was Joe Cook, who lived in a little humpy, a little house, in Macaulay Street, Lithgow. The street that ah in days gone by took the workmen to the state coal mine. And ah Sir Joseph Cook, as he later became known, holding many positions and Prime Minister of Australia, he lived in that place. And this extraordinary personality, he was a Labor ah leader. He was defeated in election and immediately after the election, he emerged as the deputy o-, of the successful party and deserted his old workmates and all the traditions, all the people's effort. And it's a thing that grieves me that when members of parliament, overlook the people who make the members of parliament. Because no person that I know of could have been a member of parliament, without friends, without mates, without people who are prepared to work and support them. People going out, dropping ah [indecipherable]. bundles round about. Talking to their neighbours and ah meeting the people and selling them out: the mission of the Labor Party, the purpose of the Labor Party, the need for reform, and the wrongdoing of our opponents! And yet, we find some, feel that after having reached the height, that they can then say goodbye to all that made that possible. Well, it's a tragic and terrible thing and it's one of the sad things. And that's why I feel unhappy at times when I find cabinet ministers, ministers of the crown, they've got to their position—which is quite a position of importance—especially if they'd realise it and take a keener interest in their portfolio and their jobs and get the answers to questions. Rather than relying wholeheartedly, exclusively, blindly on the advice given to them by departmental officers and others on basic issues. They ought to try to find out some answers themselves and not take everything for granted. And this is one of the thing that irks me because it's so wrong and it dulls the, ah the effectiveness of a Labor government where the ministers lack the capacity to do their job. And it's unfortunate that some people become ministers, not because of any great capacity of their own to do a job, but because they're regarded as ah the right type of person. That they belong to the right ah thinking group and that they do not measure up, basically, to do the job for which they've been given the very rich privilege of doing. And that brings me, if I may, ah to a jump well ahead on the question of, ah of people and, and, and getting [indecipherable]. because the, the media has called them right-wingers, left-wingers or something of the kind and ah given them a tag, a label and because of this label, they can find preferment, they can advancement and they get opportunities which they certainly should not get. And when I think of tags on people, later I already talking about my illustrious predecessor: Joseph Benedict Chifley, Ben Chifley. At time 00:38:25 Summary: Things that irritate him about some parliamentarians, including using media labels to their advantage. Keywords: Minister, Joseph Benedict (Ben) Chifley, right-wing A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And it's unfortunate that some people become ministers, not because of any great capacity of their own to do a job, but because they're regarded as ah the right type of person. That they belong to the right ah thinking group and that they do not measure up, basically, to do the job for which they've been given the very rich privilege of doing. And that brings me, if I may, ah to a jump well ahead on the question of, ah of people and, and, and getting [indecipherable]. because the, the media has called them right-wingers, left-wingers or something of the kind and ah given them a tag, a label and because of this label, they can find preferment, they can advancement and they get opportunities which they certainly should not get. And when I think of tags on people, later I already talking about my illustrious predecessor: Joseph Benedict Chifley, Ben Chifley. He was the young Australia who was just the average Australia. Born at Limekilns in the country out from Bathurst, a country boy who came to Lithg-, ah to Bathurst to live. And in Bathurst he was just a boy of the town, he played Rugby League football, he was one of the lads of the town. He had a delightful personality and he was quite a success. He, he managed to, after school, I think he was at the, ah attended a school by the De La Salle Order but then, after that he ah found a job in Bathurst and later at the railway as a cleaner, as fireman and as an engine driver. And Ben Chifley was just one of the ordinary Labor people of the time. Interested in the town, the city of Bathurst, on the hospital board. Ah interested in shire council—ah the Abercrombie Shire Council—to which he'd been elected. And this man, Ben Chifley, had been given all types of tags. Now, what sort of person was he? And how do these tags work out? Well, i-, in politics, he had to take a stand on various issues. Ah his general attitude was one of being just the Labor man. As he said at one time in regard to the problems of the day that his plan was the platform of the Labor Party—no more, no less. Perhaps was inadequate statement in view of the [indecipherable]. of the time, but this was his word. At time 00:40:36 Summary: Wide ranging comments about Ben Chifley, including his progressive policies. Keywords: Limekilns, Bathurst, De La Salle, Abercrombie Shire Council, Bank of England, Prof Guggenheimer, 1939 miners strike, Soviet Union A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Interested in the town, the city of Bathurst, on the hospital board. Ah interested in shire council—ah the Abercrombie Shire Council—to which he'd been elected. And this man, Ben Chifley, had been given all types of tags. Now, what sort of person was he? And how do these tags work out? Well, i-, in politics, he had to take a stand on various issues. Ah his general attitude was one of being just the Labor man. As he said at one time in regard to the problems of the day that his plan was the platform of the Labor Party—no more, no less. Perhaps was inadequate statement in view of the [indecipherable]. of the time, but this was his word. Then what was his attitude in other matters? When the Scullin government did not implement Labor policies, when along with the Premiers' Plan and accepted up to Otto Niemeyer and Professor Guggenheim as dictates and we bent to the will of the Bank of England in financial affairs. All of these things disturbed us very greatly but this was the position at the time. Chifley's voice was ineffective because he was not a minister—ah he later became a minister, minister for defence, but at the time he was not. And so it was: what sort of person? Let's look over all of this. Ben Chifley developed and he developed ah into the prime minister of the country. He ah tried one of the most progressive and one of the most advanced in the history of the country in policy-making when he tried to nationalise the banking. There was no step made in the history of Australia towards socialisation more dramatic, more positive than the nationalisation of banking. And he was to receive a tag of some kind then and a label. He should have got a three start of a five start socialisation badge because he unquestionably was making one of the most positive steps towards the nationalisation: controlling the, the banking system. The complete and utter control of the banking system. Well, then, look a little further in his life. The miners were on strike in 1949 and he brought the troops. Ah not in '49, '39. And he brought the troops into the mines. Got the soldiers to come to go and help to get coal from the open cuts and elsewhere—to keep industry going. To the trade unionist and especially to the more radical trade unionist, it was one of the most reactionary steps that could have been taken yet one of the steps condemned by the people. He also at the time, took steps internally in the political life of the country by trying, ah by—not trying—but he with his leaders of the federal parliamentary, ah federal executive of the Labor Party, he took action and ah suspended and had dismissed from office, the Hughes-Evans executive, because they carried some notion about hands off Russia. And so it was that this is the other personality. Andrew Moore: Which provides us with an appropriate moment to consider that other great event of the First World War: the 1917 strike. Chifley's attitude then was greatly in contrast to 1949. Do you remember the reactions in this case? At time 00:44:40 Summary: The 1917 strike; including Ben Chifley's position, some comments about Lithgow involvement, and scab labour. Keywords: Australian Federated Union of Locomotive Employees (AFULE), scab labour, Cullen Bullen Andrew Moore: Which provides us with an appropriate moment to consider that other great event of the First World War: the 1917 strike. Chifley's attitude then was greatly in contrast to 1949. Do you remember the reactions in this case? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I do because ah the 1917 strike was really a very effective strike. It was one of the most ah, the whole countryside was held up and Chifley—as an official of the AFUEL, he ah, he took a strong stand in the strike. And he was a, he was a striker while some, one or two of his friends up round Bathurst continued to work, they were ostracised and ah disregarded and unwanted. But Ben Chifley, among his union mates, as a unionist, he was held in the very highest regard because of his stand taken in that. Andrew Moore: What was happening in Lithgow during the 1917 strikes? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, there, there were, there was strike here and very effective strike because Lithgow had a very strong trade union movement—the Miners' Federation and the ah railwaymen worked closely together and there was union in that and unity. And very e-, effective ah, ah strike action was taken here. I-, in Lithgow, there's always been a brand of militancy. Today perhaps less than other time because con-, conditions have changed so very much over the years. And perhaps it's a lesson for employers and those in authority, if you want to overcome your problem, problems, try to remove and erase the problems. And ah, ah that's why conditions are very much ah different today than they were in those time. Andrew Moore: In Lithgow, at that time, ah to get to the ah, the other side of ah, of the profit margin, there are a group of people—that might ah probably be called scabs but should politely be called strike breakers—who were brought to the area, were they not? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh yes, oh yes. Well, this was one of the things that ah, that happened from time to time—that the employers would … Andrew Moore: What sort of people were they? The, the … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, quite often ah they, they were people who knew nothing about the issues at all. Some time they were people from farmlands and in those distant days, when to go to a university was a privilege, a very, very special privilege that only finance could provide, some time it was the u-, university ah boys, the young lads from the universities who would be ah recruited to come into towards the breaking of a strike to provide what they described as the 'free labour', the loyalists, the people who were going to help management in times of crisis. But of course, ah … Andrew Moore: What sort of labourers, ah how good were they at their labour? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, they were rather ineffective, ah to say useless perhaps would be ah the correct term but they were not very effective because they knew nothing about their jobs. And ah my wife ah, Mrs Luchetti, who lived at Cullen Bullen at the period, often speaks of what occurred there. She was, attended school in that little schoolhouse at Cullen Bullen and the railways line from the mine down to the railway, ah tramway line that took the mining skips with the coal down past the school. They ah, often with the, because of the scabs in the lack of knowledge of the ah operation of the mining equipment, those skips would run away down the steep incline and crash over the banks and ah over the rails, off the rails causing coal to pile up. And when one skip would go off, others would go off likewise. And quite often when you're dealing with work at the mine, the, the idea of clipping a, a skip on to a rope, and unless you are very smart and the boys who left school at thirteen and a half or fourteen who, who learnt the thing, the hard w-, job the hard way, they were truly experts, they were master at handling the, the pins a-, and releasing the skip or engaging the skip on the rope and so on and ah they could do a mighty job. At time 00:48:00 Summary: Continues about how the 1917 strike affected Lithgow (with description of some coal mining practices). Keywords: Lithgow Pottery Estate, pit head, slack, lumpy coal A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And quite often when you're dealing with work at the mine, the, the idea of clipping a, a skip on to a rope, and unless you are very smart and the boys who left school at thirteen and a half or fourteen who, who learnt the thing, the hard w-, job the hard way, they were truly experts, they were master at handling the, the pins a-, and releasing the skip or engaging the skip on the rope and so on and ah they could do a mighty job. Andrew Moore: Police were brought here, too, weren't they? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh well, police were. As a matter, for one of my ah, ah in all the strikes, mostly they brought ah police. On one occasion, quite a lot of them were kept up at the pottery estate at Lithgow, ah there were quite a lot of empty buildings up there and they had them there. Andrew Moore: They brought from Sydney? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah, they were brought from Sydney and ah an uncle of mine who was the president of the Miners' Federation, he went and met the strikes and, str-, ah the strike breakers coming in and I, they had quite a, a, some trouble there at the time. But these were staring days and when you think of the problems of the miners, and your mind goes back to the difficult times that the miners, working on contract, getting so much per tonne to produce coal to be weighed at the pithead, that before they could get the coal, they had to get all the fine coal or slack away from the lumpy coal—which was all that was required. And the slack had to be thrown back into what they called the gob—into a place on the side. And the coal would virtually be lifted up ah by—if not a good square mount shovel—ah by um sort of other device that would keep the coal nice and clean, and that fine coal ah was not accepted. Of course, in subsequent years, that fine coal was just what they want. And these days they crushed the coal and they washed the coal and they treat the coal. These are things but in those days, it was extremely ah difficult on the minor to produce the type of coal that would ah, ah be required—especially if you had to blast a few shots, you know, and required to shoot the, some coal down, you break up quite a lot of the coal. And that was not sold, ah the miner was not paid for that. That was the slack and only the big stuff was being used. Andrew Moore: The mind boggles at some university student doing all this. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, they wouldn't have a chance, they wouldn't have any knowledge. And in the 1939 strike when, when Ben Chifley brought the miners in, they were mainly dealing with open cuts. And then, then they had their problems with the open cuts because, to operate some of those loaders and so on, ah was a most difficult thing. And if the miners hadn't agreed to have gone back to work when they did, well, we would have been completely out of coal in, in this country, we wouldn't have had sufficient coal to have satisfied the needs of industry and to have kept a normal l-, ah form of life functioning in our country. Andrew Moore: The other thing that strikes me about yours is a, in some sense, an archetypal working-class upbringing and existence in a working-class community is your enthusiasm for Rugby League. What are the connections between Rugby League and, and the labour movement, the working class as a whole? At time 00:51:50 Summary: The relationship between the working class and rugby league. Keywords: Rugby union, rugby league, Massa Johnson, All Black Rugby Union, Victor Trumper (cricket), Northern Union, boxing Andrew Moore: The other thing that strikes me about yours is a, in some sense, an archetypal working-class upbringing and existence in a working-class community is your enthusiasm for Rugby League. What are the connections between Rugby League and, and the labour movement, the working class as a whole? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, historically, ah Rugby Union was the game. Ah it was supposed to be an amateur game played at the big schools and colleges. It was a game ah where the more privileged people had the opportunity of participating and learning the finer points. You're supposed to be amateur where those engaged were not paid. How true that was is ah very questionable, one of the coaches I had in my day was ah Masser Johnson, who came from New Zealand, who'd been an All Black Rugby Union player and an All Black Rugby League player. And he told us of some of the tricks they got to get money. They'd leave their boots out and they'd find some money in their boots ah the next morning and they were receiving payments. And this lily-white nonsense was not always observed. And ah the interesting thing with Rugby League, how they, those who ah decided to start the Rugby League game, they, they decided because of, of what they considered the unfairness of it all. Those who were promoting the game were dealing with vast sums of money and those who were, ah who were receiving money—quite wrongly because they were supposed to be amateurs—ah they were only getting really pin money. It was nothing very worthwhile at all. So when the, the, the break occurred, it broke in the northern counties of England and it was, Rugby League was known as 'Northern Union' and ah this was the game, how it was started. And in Australia, we started, and one of the most interesting things, one of the whitest of the whites in, ah in the sporting world in this country who supported Rugby League was Victor Trumper, the renowned cricketer, and he was a Rugby League supporter. And … Andrew Moore: You played Rugby League yourself, didn't you? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I played Rugby League. Yes, I played ah in Lithgow, we had a pretty good team. Andrew Moore: Played prop? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah front row forward, yes, prop—and ah rather enjoyed it. Although not a big man, I, I was athletic and I was strong. I'd been, developed some pretty hard skill out in the bush, chasing cattle and, and all that sort of thing—boilermaker's mate, blacksmith striker—and I'd learnt how to, tried to do a bit of boxing. Had a few contests in the ring. And all the … Andrew Moore: In Lithgow? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah I, I, only one in the ring here, one time. And ah I, down at Newnes we had ah permission to have boxing there during the wartime. And I had three contests down there, I had one against a lad named Jimmy Cripps, a friend whose father had the hotel down there. And Jimmy did his schooling there in the end at King's School Parramatta and Jimmy had a good tutor down there named Jim Barren, a boxer of some renown, and he taught Jimmy a few of the things that you should do in boxing. One was to use a good straight lift. And Jimmy and I had a four-rounder and although it was only a draw, I won the aggression part of it but Jimmy, I think, had a much better straight left than what I had. And I learnt how to stop straight lefts. And ah I had a, AB Millard was another, another chap I'd boxed down there for a ten-rounder, and we've got very little money and ah, and Tom Bone, a six-rounder. But ah I, I enjoyed boxing. I, I, I was very keen on it. It was a matter of great interest to me. But in the football I played in Lithgow we had a very good district team here in the twenties, late twenties, we played Sydney teams, played St George one time and we, they led us in a, on a Saturday when we ah, ah had to knock off the game Sunday—when we knocked off the game because of pouring rain. And ah on the Monday we played and beat them and I nearly had that finger b-, knocked by the prop opposite me because we were winning the ball from the scrum, and every time we won the ball from the scrum, he'd try to break away and I'd stop him from trying to interfere with our backsides, head-locking. At time 00:54:50 Summary: Continues about his own involvement in rugby league and boxing. Keywords: Jimmy Cripps*, The Kings School, Parramatta, Jim Barron*, Group Ten, Lithgow Shamrocks Rugby League A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: But ah I, I enjoyed boxing. I, I, I was very keen on it. It was a matter of great interest to me. But in the football I played in Lithgow we had a very good district team here in the twenties, late twenties, we played Sydney teams, played St George one time and we, they led us in a, on a Saturday when we ah, ah had to knock off the game Sunday—when we knocked off the game because of pouring rain. And ah on the Monday we played and beat them and I nearly had that finger b-, knocked by the prop opposite me because we were winning the ball from the scrum, and every time we won the ball from the scrum, he'd try to break away and I'd stop him from trying to interfere with our backsides, head-locking. He'd warn me to do that again and I disregarded the advice and he bit my finger and gnawed it away and I couldn't do anything because my arm was round, around w-, the prop and the, Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: and my finger was in his mouth so my, I was rather helpless. But ah they were great days and I, I'm happy to say that I've got still good, great association with Rugby League, I'd been grouped in president, Lithgow League president. And I'm still patron of Western Division Country Rugby League, Group 10 Rugby League, and ah the two great clubs here—Shamrocks and Workmen's Club—I'm patron of each one of them. And glad to say that the game is thriving and doing very well, some very good football is being played. Andrew Moore: It seems that the camaraderie involved in Rugby League in the community l-, this is very similar to the, the feeling of comradeship amongst the labour movement generally, doesn't it? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, it's true and a very interesting thing is this: that ah politically, the people who are involved in Rugby League are basically Labor people and they adopt that attitude. They, they, you, if you go to a function, you'll, you'll find them without any triggering at all, they come out to express their feelings very clearly. Another thing about Rugby League players, most of them are pretty good talkers. That's one of the things they learned at their meetings, they've got points of view and they know what they're talking about. They, they know the rules of the game—or they think they know the rules of the game—and ah they'll, they'll discuss all sorts of strategy and tactics and, and what the referee did right and what the referee did wrong and whether their president secretary had behaved correctly for them in running the business. And made it, more or less, a very close community matter. Andrew Moore: So that's the sporting side of, of um, of your um adolescence, what were you reading at this stage? What were, what was your education? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, ah I, I, I read everything that I possibly ah could. Ah I, I liked poetry. Ah I liked Bobby Burns because he had a good social message and I think ah … At time 00:58:05 Summary: What he read as he was growing up, including Burns' poetry. Keywords: Poetry, Robert Burns, Alexander McDonald (teacher), 'Lady of the Lake', Sir Walter Scott, 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist', Jack London, The Ten Commandments A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, ah I, I, I read everything that I possibly ah could. Ah I, I liked poetry. Ah I liked Bobby Burns because he had a good social message and I think ah … Andrew Moore: Where did you first come into contact with Bobby Burns? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I think from my schooldays because I, I'd, an Alexander McDonald, a, a teacher, ah he was not a Scotsman but he was from Scottish family. And ah he, he spoke of Bobby Burns. My dad spoke of Bobby Burns and other people I knew ah spoke of Bobby Burns and w-, ah made it my business to read Bobby Burns and any functions and to remember Bobby Burns, I attended. Ah teacher also read us passages from Lady of the Lake, you know, Sir Walter Scott's work, his wonderful descriptive wor-, ah writings I've seen and that was most enjoyable, was brilliant. But ah I'm thinking of Bobby Burns, one came to the social question of man's inhumanity to man is really a credo, it's the very basis from which people should really start and brings me to a, a thing which is more or less biblical ah from Bobby Burns. I was ah talking these matters one day at work when I was boilerma-, ah blacksmith, ah brickies labourer and some of them said: 'Oh, well, you're talking … well, what would you, policy, what would you base it on?' And I thought: goodness, this is something new. I didn't read it in The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists, and I didn't, Jack London didn't talk very much about that. I said: 'The ten commandments,' I said, 'that'd be mine.' And these chaps who were pretty good churchgoers said: 'Well, at least Tony's on the right track here. He's, he's going to start from the, the correct base.' So I, I started off, I, by telling them a, it was the Ten Commandments. Andrew Moore: M'mm. What about Henry Lawson? At time 01:00:06 Summary: How he admires Henry Lawson's writing (with some quotes). Keywords: Henry Lawson, Kanangra Walls, the Wollondilly Andrew Moore: M'mm. What about Henry Lawson? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Henry Lawson: I admired Henry Lawson because … Andrew Moore: How widely taught was Henry Lawson, though, when you were at school? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, ah not, not as much as it should have been, no, not as—but I've got to say this: there seemed to be a greater national activity and urge ah, ah in ah the ah 1914/15 and so on. Perhaps the war made people think, well, something about Australia. But Henry Lawson, who was very, very good and quite frequently I'd go to a, a naturalisation ceremony and often I would recite a passage from Henry Lawson: 'Australia! Australia! So fair to behold,' and so on. And ah, and ah quite, quite a lot of [indecipherable]. talk of: 'the shamrock, the thistle, the rose, Or the three and the bunch, if you will; But I know a land that gathered all those, And I love the dear land where the waratah grows and the wattle blooms out on the hill. Australia! Australia! So fair to behold.' And these are the thing that really got right down into my bones and into my veins and ah i-, i-, it meant so much and so many of those old poets, ah they were trying to sing a song of Australia, and tragically, pathetically today, we're making noises that we come, get from the United States, there's somewhere else, very little music. A-, and, and bereft of words or message or meaning, where we ought to be really absorbing something about our country, to write a song about Lithgow or Wolgan Valley or, or Kanangra Walls or, or, or the Wollondilly or somewhere else. Ah these are the sort of things I would hope we could do. I can't sing—I enjoy good music. But I would like to think that I could attempt to sing some good songs about Australia. And ah unhappily, we're not doing these things: we're failing miserably and ah we're becoming enslaved, i-, i-, in this sense, in, in, in the world we talk about art, we spend money ah … Event: Interview Paused At time 01:02:32 Summary: End of session Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:00 Summary: AS Luchetti Interviewed by Andrew Moore. Tape Two. Keywords: AS (Tony) Luchetti, Andrew Moore, Lithgow, Australian Labor Party (ALP) Andrew Moore: This is tape number two of an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti, recorded by Andrew Moore on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the Parliament's Bicentenary Publications Project at Lithgow on 11 August 1983. Your remarks about Australian nationalism and Australian literature um invoke another thought about an alternative influence upon the Australian labour movement and that is internationalism and the event which comes to mind most poignantly in this regard is the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917—which of course, too many conservatives were seen as the harbinger of a dreadful future for them personally. But for the labour movement was seen by many, ah many people in the labour movement saw it as a um promise of a red dawn in a socialist future. How did it affect you? You were very young at this time? At time 00:00:01 Summary: His thoughts on the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, and his objection to Stalin. Keywords: 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, Rasputin, Germany, Vladimir Lenin, Russia, Soviet Union, Menshevik, Joseph Stalin, Lev Kamenev, Leon Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bucharin, Communist Party of Australia (CPA) Andrew Moore: This is tape number two of an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti, recorded by Andrew Moore on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the Parliament's Bicentenary Publications Project at Lithgow on 11 August 1983. Your remarks about Australian nationalism and Australian literature um invoke another thought about an alternative influence upon the Australian labour movement and that is internationalism and the event which comes to mind most poignantly in this regard is the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917—which of course, too many conservatives were seen as the harbinger of a dreadful future for them personally. But for the labour movement was seen by many, ah many people in the labour movement saw it as a um promise of a red dawn in a socialist future. How did it affect you? You were very young at this time? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: A-, actually, it didn't have a very great influence on me, although I personally welcomed a, a change because I believed that the people of Russia had received such harsh and cruel treatment ah from the Tsars and ah individuals like Rasputin and others, that they were entitled to ah protest and make changes. And while it ah may be true that the ah Germans were happy to help to cause a, a change by seeing to it that Lenin was safely back in Russia so he could promote a revolution. Nevertheless, the people of Russia seemed to embrace the ah, the, the opportunity of change and ah the difference me-, ah between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks was something that was sorted out by the Russia people. Ah to me personally, it was a change that the Russians were entitled to take. Ah what distressed me naturally was um, ah the aftermath of it all, I thought Stalin's attitude was utterly brutal in regard to the treatment of great theoreticians, great scholars, great minds like Kamenev, Ziminef, Bukharin. These men who, who were put to death, ah and ah the tragic ah and, and cruel murder of, of Trotsky, who with Lenin, had made the revolution a success—the killing of Trotsky in Mexico—was an unpardonable and hideous thing that I, I didn't forgive ah Stalin for because me-, he, he got away from the sensitivity of humanity and the wellbeing of people to ah a very narrow ah, ah dictatorship with his ah secret police that I very much objected to. And on this I, ah with ah others, disagreed with those members of the Communist Party who continued to uphold and support ah, ah Stalin's reign. Ah someone had said at the time: 'Well, of course, if Stalin was justified in killing these minds, these people whom we regarded so highly, well, they must have been a lot of crooks and criminals, or, or alternatively, Stalin's action was just merely carrying out some judicial ah killings which he was entitled to do. And for me, I, I, I disliked the whole sticky mess and ah it reinforced my belief that democracy was the way and we needed to build our democracy in this country. Andrew Moore: Internationalism, though, remains a, an important impulse in the Australian labour movement and I'm wondering about your recollections of those great movements such as the OBU and the WIRU in the early 19-, … [indecipherable]. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, ah for me, I wholeheartedly supported the idea of the OBU ah and it's one of the things that those in authority today are talking about and they're complaining about too many unions in industry and be better if there were fewer unions—you'd be able to have a better ah understanding and dealing with the problems of industry and economic matters. But the OBU was obviously a necessity because with all the ah little craft unions and conflicting union officials more concerned about their position as union officials than they were the management or control or the conduct of their unions, I, I, I firmly believe that the OBU was right and naturally, you know, family means a lot and as my dad was a delegate to the OBU conference, ah, ah decided on this and supported the change of the miner's name at the time from the Miners' Federation to the WIUA—Workers Industrial Union of Australia—which was then able to encompass and bring into the Miners' Federation the Metal Workers at Broken Hill. At time 00:03:50 Summary: Thoughts on the OBU and WIU (of 1919) and his disillusionment with so-called socialism. Keywords: One Big Union (OBU), Canada, Miners' Federation, Workers Industrial Union of Australia (WIU), Borken Hill, Wolgan Valley, socialism A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, ah for me, I wholeheartedly supported the idea of the OBU ah and it's one of the things that those in authority today are talking about and they're complaining about too many unions in industry and be better if there were fewer unions—you'd be able to have a better ah understanding and dealing with the problems of industry and economic matters. But the OBU was obviously a necessity because with all the ah little craft unions and conflicting union officials more concerned about their position as union officials than they were the management or control or the conduct of their unions, I, I, I firmly believe that the OBU was right and naturally, you know, family means a lot and as my dad was a delegate to the OBU conference, ah, ah decided on this and supported the change of the miner's name at the time from the Miners' Federation to the WIUA—Workers Industrial Union of Australia—which was then able to encompass and bring into the Miners' Federation the Metal Workers at Broken Hill. All of this seemed to be logical in, in our own little world at Newnes and the Wolgan Valley, we went ahead there to really implement the decisions of the OBU by decided that there would only be one union in the shale oil industry and that would cover tradesmen of all description, railwaymen, engine drivers and firemen, locomotive drivers and ah, ah had a vote there among all the workmen in the valley and with an overwhelming vote, they decided they'd join the Miners' Federation and that one union. Andrew Moore: In all of the enthusiasm for the OBU and the WIRU in that period, there seems to be an overwhelming belief that socialism is on the history agenda—that it is coming—is that something you shared or … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah well, it seemed to me to be much stronger than, than today. I, quite frankly, there's too much of a phoney attitude about socialism today. People are talking about f-, socialism but their conduct is contrary to the tenets of socialism. Each for all and all for each, production for use and not for profit. There seems today to be an attitude: I'm all right, Jack. And people are doing very, very well indeed are, are very pleased to pursue that way and disregard the needs of, say, the unemployed. This has been one of the thing that destroy-, ah disturbed me as a member of parliament. Ah m-, quite frequently one, even the press one time wrote it up where I was continued to hum about the unemployed. Well, this is the concern! And today, what do we find? We find someone with a most lucrative position doing wonderfully well a-, and as much as mothers are entitled as, as an individual to have a job, but there's very little thought given to the boy and girl leaving school that has to be, have to be found jobs. And this is the thing that ah distresses me. And basic matters where we had strong, cooperative movement when I was a young man, ah it, it's dead or dying. And even the problems of today … ah I'm get on this issue and I'm not going to touch the ah problems immediately facing ah Bob Hawke, as prime minister of Australia in the labour movement. But one thing that disturbed me today was lump sum superannuation. Obviously the sum of the money received by such as air, air ah pilots ah for the airlines, they, they get tremendous sum of money and ah it seemed more than generous sum of money. But what disturbs me very greatly, that if you have a superannuation scheme, you shouldn't reach the stage where you've got to tell the people who have their superannuation fund that they've got to hand over substantial sum of their money to a private insurance company so that they can be assured in the future of a steady income. At time 00:07:15 Summary: Comments about Bob Hawke, socialism and his disillusionment with superannuation. Keywords: Robert (Bob) James Lee Hawke, superannuation A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Obviously the sum of the money received by such as air, air ah pilots ah for the airlines, they, they get tremendous sum of money and ah it seemed more than generous sum of money. But what disturbs me very greatly, that if you have a superannuation scheme, you shouldn't reach the stage where you've got to tell the people who have their superannuation fund that they've got to hand over substantial sum of their money to a private insurance company so that they can be assured in the future of a steady income. The very basis of ah superannuation should be that you're going to be superannuated in such a way that you're going to have a steady income for the rest of your life. You've made your contribution, the government—ah with taxpayers' money—have made their contribution, and that should flow onward. But as it is today, there's no socialism in the idea that, say, ah some public servant or somebody who's worked for the government in some way—whether it be air force, pilot or a miner or anybody else—well have to go to an insurance company, privately-owned insurance company, to hand over a substantial sum of money to get something on the future. That's not socialism. Andrew Moore: What were you doing in the early 1920s, then? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The, the early 1920s were most ah interesting and vigorous years for me because ah, ah with the close of the shale oil industry, I came to Lithgow in 1923, I immediately obtained employment ah Vailaclude Brickyards here. And ah most difficult, hard word but I enjoyed it 'cause I was young and healthy and strong—I was pretty vigorous. And ah at the Vailaclude Brickyard I got involved with the ah Brick, Tile and Pottery Union, become the local president of the union here where we had three brickyards. At time 00:09:14 Summary: What he was doing in the 1920s, including working at the brickyards, active involvement in the union, joining the ALP (in '23) and where he lived. Keywords: Shale Oil industry, Vale of Clwydd Brickyards, Brick Tile and Pottery Union, Marrangaroo, 24 Lithgow Street, Harry Walker, Clifford Reginald Walker A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The, the early 1920s were most ah interesting and vigorous years for me because ah, ah with the close of the shale oil industry, I came to Lithgow in 1923, I immediately obtained employment ah Vailaclude Brickyards here. And ah most difficult, hard word but I enjoyed it 'cause I was young and healthy and strong—I was pretty vigorous. And ah at the Vailaclude Brickyard I got involved with the ah Brick, Tile and Pottery Union, become the local president of the union here where we had three brickyards. We had the silica brick manufacture ah out of Marrangaroo, the Lithgow Pottery and the Vailaclude. I become their president here of the local sub-ranch of the union, a member of the state executive and ah was quite active, joined up ah with the other organisations here. I became a delegate to the local eight-hour day as it was known at the time and ah representative of my union and ah then joined the Labor Party—and this was … Andrew Moore: That's in 1923 to … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: 1923, yes—as soon as the, I, I could get established here, I immediately joined. And I was living in a, in a boarding house at 24 Lithgow Street, Lithgow. Ah it's a delight high-gabled old place and this is not very basic but it's a delightful place. It was the home of the Walker family. Ah Harry Walker, dad, was a typical Australian. Ah a man of refreshing quality, a most interesting man. And ah he worked in the mine and ah he l-, enjoyed a glass of beer, he, he loved his workmen's club and a game of cards or dominoes and ah he could talk cricket—he was very fond of cricket. He enjoyed rugby league and he even lectured me one time that I should apply myself more thoroughly as I had the physique, I looked like I had the capacity to do very well. Told me I ought to do more for—in training—for rugby league. And he was an interesting fella but his, his, his wife was a, a, a, one of those petite, ah she was a, a dainty little lady and the family were a very well-adjusted family and the families loved their music and it was a happy place—they had their piano. And I had a very close friend in Clifford Reginald Walker. He was a great mate of mine, a close friend, and he and I shared lots of ah views in common. And he played the piano ah much above the average ability of those who ah played the piano at the time. And he, the old masters he knew were Riverdi or ah, or any of the old hands, ah any of the old composers. He knew them all well, very, very well. And ah he, he, he, he w-, he was really um a, a most likeable and interesting person. And Cliff and I developed our friendship very closely. He at this time worked on, at the railway here in Lithgow. And he and I joined the Labor Party—the [indecipherable]. Ah and ah we were not deeply impressed. Although the one, our first meeting, a, a woman—ah whose name just escapes me—she gave a talk on the Tolpuddle Martyrs. And I thought: 'There's something in this. This is worthwhile to give some history of ah, ah difficulties of human beings and their troubles and trials.' And ah Cliff and I attended a few meetings and w-, any public meetings when we attended. And ah we got immersed in matters very closely and among other things that we did was to go to any place where there was a debate or discussion. Whether it was the Presbyterian Men's League—I remember one discussion there with a local minister, Reverend P.A. Hope, gave a talk on: 'My attitude to war', and at that particular meeting, ah Billy Orr, a communist who'd come from ah Scotland, Bellshill in Scotland, who got into the mine here, they hadn't worked in a mine before, he had to convince some people he knew something about mines but ah he was a pretty canny fellow—to use the Scottish term. And he got a job at the Vailaclude Colliery and ah Billy Orr made a comment at the talk and said he quoted from Burns ah on war: 'Ye hypocrites, are these your pranks? To murder men and gee God thanks. Gee or and go no further. God won't accept your thanks for murder.' At time 00:12:40 Summary: More memories of the early '20s, including public meetings he attended, and comments about Billy Orr*. Keywords: Tolpuddle Martyrs, Rev PA Hope, Billy Orr* (communist), Scotland, Bells Hill, Presbyterian Men's League, 'My Attitude to War', Militant Minority Movement (MMM), Vince Parry* A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And ah Cliff and I attended a few meetings and w-, any public meetings when we attended. And ah we got immersed in matters very closely and among other things that we did was to go to any place where there was a debate or discussion. Whether it was the Presbyterian Men's League—I remember one discussion there with a local minister, Reverend P.A. Hope, gave a talk on: 'My attitude to war', and at that particular meeting, ah Billy Orr, a communist who'd come from ah Scotland, Bellshill in Scotland, who got into the mine here, they hadn't worked in a mine before, he had to convince some people he knew something about mines but ah he was a pretty canny fellow—to use the Scottish term. And he got a job at the Vailaclude Colliery and ah Billy Orr made a comment at the talk and said he quoted from Burns ah on war: 'Ye hypocrites, are these your pranks? To murder men and gee God thanks. Gee or and go no further. God won't accept your thanks for murder.' And I always remember Billy Orr. Billy Orr—if I may diver-, just for one moment—was an exceedingly hard-working person. Ah he, he, he, his clothes were not the most modern cut. He'd come here with a Welshman named Vince Parry, who was rather a smart, dapper sort of streamlined creature. But Billy was the more [indecipherable]. Scot—who, who, who had a pretty stern life in Scotland. Been in New Zealand, then came here. And ah Billy worked very hard in the ah militant minority movement—the MMMs. And ah he, he was a great writer. He had a splendid, round hand—a very legible writer. And he used to write letters from our boarding house all, to all the minefields, to all miners lodge secretaries and presidents—were activists in various places. And through that, among other things, he helped to advance himself as ah a candidate for promotion in the officialdom of the Miners' Federation. But Cliff and I ah continued our way. We ah worked, attended the university tutorial classes known as the ah Workers Educational ah, ah Association. And ah one of the most important of all was the Plebs League. It was a study group organised ostensibly by the Miners' Federation, and in Lithgow ah the, the leader of the ah discussion group was Charles Nelson—a coalminer from the state coalmine at Lithgow. I knew of Charlie at Newnes in the Wolgan Valley and at that time, Charlie had ah led a very difficult life because he had been drinking heavily. And he had no stability there. But he came to Lithgow and he had changed his habits and had settled down and was reading very great deal. And he conducted the Workers Education, ah the Plebs League. And at the Plebs League, we discussed many matters. But mainly, it was a sheer, straightforward, study group. And Charlie Nelson introduced Das Kapital but we didn't do with the whole volume. At time 00:15:35 Summary: Discussion groups, public meetings and the Pleb's League (early '20s). Keywords: Plebu's League, Charles Nelson, Tom Marr*, Division of Macquarie, 'Das Kapital', 'value price & profit', A Bogdanoff, Mr O'Connor (AEU), Matt Wise Meat Trade Union, Mr Ward A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I knew of Charlie at Newnes in the Wolgan Valley and at that time, Charlie had ah led a very difficult life because he had been drinking heavily. And he had no stability there. But he came to Lithgow and he had changed his habits and had settled down and was reading very great deal. And he conducted the Workers Education, ah the Plebs League. And at the Plebs League, we discussed many matters. But mainly, it was a sheer, straightforward, study group. And Charlie Nelson introduced Das Kapital but we didn't do with the whole volume. But we took out value, price and profit and we discussed that, we would read ah a passage, debate it, discuss it—more discussion than debate—ah consider and evaluate words and have a general discussion on the economics of value, price and profit. We also studied Bogdanov's economic theories. The history of people from primitive, tribal communism and so on. And this was the thing, we sat in an economic geography, and Cliff and I were very close friends and we attended our Labor meetings ah, ah occasionally. Ah Cliff didn't go, go regularly—I think he was not particularly impressed—because it was not a big ah gathering. We had some good people there like O'Connor, later the mayor of Lithgow, an AU man. We had Matt Wise of the, of the ah Meat Trade Union, we had Ward, who was the secretary to the Ironworkers Union. We had Jensen from the Small Arms Factory—Arms, Explosive, Ammunitions and so on. We had a mixed lot but the, they didn't always attend the meeting, they were pretty casual. And anyhow, at the Plebs League, we had a most interesting time. I recall, in particularly, one thing at the Plebs League, a debate which was held on night between Charles Nelson and ah Tom Marr, a collector of customs. Tom had come up to Lithgow with the idea of being a candidate for Labor preselection for the seat of Macquarie and Macquarie features in this—that ah he's got w-, one way to get known as, and as the miners have a vote, would have a vote in the preselection, well, one way to get to them would be through the Plebs League—Charlie Nelson and the boys. And ah so he come up to debate Charlie and it was agreed that they'd debate on a certain date. No time limits were fixed or anything. Nelson agreed to a firm that the dictatorship and the proletariat was the final expression of working class thought. And Charlie spoke for an extended period—how long I just can't remember. But it was a very, very long time. It would have been more than an hour, anyhow, let's put it down to that. And Charlie, gave his talk and Tom Marr got up to reply. It was a brief reply but it was a clever reply. He said: 'The dictatorship of the proletariat should not and cannot be the final expression of working-class thought because the dictatorship should be a step towards a classless society when all people, all kinds … there should be production for use and not for profit. Each for all, all for each. And one group should not impose their will on another group. Therefore a classless society should be the final expression of working-class thought, and I rest my case on that.' Andrew Moore: M'mm. It's a particularly thorny issue, isn't it? A Leninist thought but … At time 00:19:33 Summary: Comments about CPA friends from the Pleb's League; Fred Airey (Mr Blake), and Cliff Walker, and why he (Tony) didn't become a member of the CPA. Keywords: Fred Airey* (Mr Blake CPA Melbourne), Mr Dickson*, democracy Andrew Moore: M'mm. It's a particularly thorny issue, isn't it? A Leninist thought but … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes! Well, anyhow, I, I, I think the majority of us that night thought: 'Well, Charlie, you've made a very good case but this chap has outpointed you. He, he, he, he's really appointed you.' Ah the-, these were stirring times and ah with ah Cliff Walker, he shortly afterwards was transferred to Sydney in the railway department and ah the Plebs League didn't prosper much. Ah many of the people attending it were old miners and Dixon, Walker and myself and another young man named Fred Airie, he was a the son of an old ah coalminer. I think he came from the northern counties of England—up in the north somewhere. But Fred would go to the meetings, and Fred, unlike Cliff Walker and myself, was not very vocal, didn't say much. He absorbed everything that was going on. And I understand, he emerged later as a very prominent communist in ah, ah Melbourne under the name of Blake. Now, with Cliff, he went to Sydney and made great progress as a member of the communist party. And Cliff would come to me and suggest that I should join. Well, I could from a basis of one or two matters, in that poli-, wide political sense, I've got fai-, faith i-, i-, in democracy, the government of the people by the people, for the people. It is my belief that if people would apply themselves and use the machinery available in a democratic society, they could do much. And one of the problems was the indifference of people—a failure to take advantage of the opportunities that were there. I know there are shortcomings in our parliamentary democracy, our system. Ah there are some difficult ah situations where departments often control affairs rather than the elected people. But all in all, I felt that the dic-, ah dictatorship was not in my book the final expression. I didn't want a dictatorship, I sought democracy. I was firm d-, w-, believer i-, in local self-government. I believed in people decided, as well as they were able, to determine matters affected themselves and their communities. And I felt that also in regard ah to the democratic process and of parliament. Andrew Moore: Cliff Walker went on to have a, an interesting part in Labor politics, too, didn't he? At time 00:22:16 Summary: Reasons Cliff and Fred changed their names as members of the CPA, and how his own Christian beliefs moved him away from the CPA. Keywords: Jack Blake, Richard Dickson, Catholic Church, mass Andrew Moore: Cliff Walker went on to have a, an interesting part in Labor politics, too, didn't he? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah oh, he, he was ah very ah much involved with the communist party. Ah you know, he, he, he reached one of the highest positions and he remained ah a very dominant figure ah in the higher echelon of the communist party. Andrew Moore: Why did he change his name? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, it seems to be the ah policy of the communist party. Perhaps it's ah a new life, a new beginning—I, I'm not too sure. Well, you see, Airie became Blake. Andrew Moore: See, J-, it is an amazing situation that ah Jack Blake and Richard Dixon are part of Labor politics in Lithgow in the 1920s. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Very much. Basically Labor and … Andrew Moore: [indecipherable]. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And whilst Walker and I, Dixon, were very close here. As I say, I couldn't become a communist: I disagreed because I do believed i-, i-, in some, that there must be some supreme being. I had ah some little training ah as a Catholic a-, and ah, although I was not as thorough-going as I might have been in my earlier days, ah attending mass regularly or anything like that, and I was not under any pressure from anybody. I often seriously and deeply thought over the problems of mankind, the universe and I couldn't conceive of an idea that all of this wonderful universe just happened by chance or, or the, the beauty of this earth ah just came by chance: it's a tremendous thing. And ah all of this gave me the idea that there w-, must be and is a supreme being. And ah I was not content either to believe that when you died, that was the end. That there was no, nothing else left, I felt that there was some life after that. There must be something or it'd be a sad thing for some of the wonderful people if with their, their burial … Andrew Moore: And those were the sorts of issues that swayed you away from the Communist Party? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Very great. And, and I thought these a-, one, I can recall one time at the Val-, at the Lithgow Valley Pottery where I got ah, ah was employed, and how I, I was filling clay into the skips to make drainpipes and ah in a period when I was waiting for my truck to be hauled away, this was going through my mind. I thought: oh, there's some shortcomings about all of this religion. I can't see how it's all just right. And I was a bit of a doubting Thomas. I was thinking: well, if we're set on this earth to be tried out, to see how, whether we qualify for the hereafter and as God has the answer to all of these things, we'd know before we started how we were going to finish! So our trial run would be rather a futile exercise. And these are the sort of things running through my mind. But the overpowering thing was—from a Christian point of view—that there had to be some orders, something beyond man's feeble effort, which to me seemed to be very little better than an old bullfrog in a mountain ah stream jumping up into the air and feeling that we solved the problems of the universe. Even our most wonderful efforts ah into space are very, very limited compared with the magnitude of the university and the light years between the various galaxies and so on. These are sort of things ah that brought me back to Tawsner, and as a small, very small boy, I attended a, a Catholic school for a period at Newnes and I had a very competent teacher, a Miss Agatha Le Breton, who became one of the very competent, very capable writers for Catholic school. She was not a nun, she was not of a religious order. But she was an extremely capable young woman. And perhaps her job was down at Newnes in the Wolgan Valley where we had a church school. And I attended that and she gave me a few lessons with some wisdom and a little bit of stick. And ah I, I got some of the facts of life in that fashion. But this is just the position. And here today, I am the fa-, ah, ah father. My wife and I have a, a daughter who's a nun, a Josephite nun, who's done wonderful work and mission work in New Guinea helping people who need assistance in more ways than spiritual, too. And ah two sons who are playing their part, doing their work pretty faithfully. Both married with families. And all in all, I, I seek in these days, to seek for order rather than perhaps the adventure of my youth. At time 00:25:30 Summary: More about his religious beliefs, and his daughter who is a nun. Keywords: Miss Agatha Le Breton*, nun, the Josephites, Papua New Guinea (PNG) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And perhaps her job was down at Newnes in the Wolgan Valley where we had a church school. And I attended that and she gave me a few lessons with some wisdom and a little bit of stick. And ah I, I got some of the facts of life in that fashion. But this is just the position. And here today, I am the fa-, ah, ah father. My wife and I have a, a daughter who's a nun, a Josephite nun, who's done wonderful work and mission work in New Guinea helping people who need assistance in more ways than spiritual, too. And ah two sons who are playing their part, doing their work pretty faithfully. Both married with families. And all in all, I, I seek in these days, to seek for order rather than perhaps the adventure of my youth. Andrew Moore: I'm not sure though that the, ah the issue of ah, of godless communists is ah entirely accurate—I think that that's something more that the conservative pamphleteers, such as MHL has dreamt up ah then. But I understand why someone had that ty-, type of upbringing would have been swayed away from the community party. But I just wonder about other issues that separate, say, you know, the two, another impulse in the labour movement: the revolutionism and reformism question. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. At time 00:27:22 Summary: Comments by Andrew about socialism, capitalism, the CPA and the ALP. Keywords: NH Ellis, reformation, revolution A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Andrew Moore: I just wonder where and what you think about the issue of social classes, and it seems to me that one of the fundamental areas where a person in the Labor Party and a person in the communist party would differ, would be how you would reconcile the differences that exist around the profit margin. That is: if we have an employing class and if that class does own means of production, distribution and exchange, how do you, they have, the communist party position would be obviously that those antagonisms and those tensions are ah irreconcilable. The Labor Party person would, I suppose, be inclined to suggest [indecipherable]. as p-, to civilise capitalism. So it's really civilising capitalism that you um, that you belong to rather than overthrowing it. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah my, my view would be that if we use our democratic process effectively and we've got a government will take the appropriate steps, I see no reason why we cannot get the advantages from ah industry, state-owned, nationally-owned as ah we would under any other system. And ah with perhaps a greater measure of freedom ah for the people engaged in the industry. The trouble as I see it is that we do not pursue our policies ah effectively or logically and ah we have this break on ah an issue where there shouldn't be one. And ah the idea of revolution certainly doesn't appeal to me because quite often there is no, seemed to be no end to the slaughter which follows the oppression of people ah by a, a dictatorship. So ah my thoughts generally go along the lines of: if we can get order ah from the chaos and lift standards of people on a march towards a complete ah j-, completely just society, well, we'd be doing the right thing.' At time 00:28:35 Summary: His faith in the democratic process, and how we don't pursue policies effectively and logically, and a few more comments about Cliff Walker Dickson*. Keywords: Cliff Walker Dickson*, Molly Barragreen, Adaminaby, Snowy Mountains A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah my, my view would be that if we use our democratic process effectively and we've got a government will take the appropriate steps, I see no reason why we cannot get the advantages from ah industry, state-owned, nationally-owned as ah we would under any other system. And ah with perhaps a greater measure of freedom ah for the people engaged in the industry. The trouble as I see it is that we do not pursue our policies ah effectively or logically and ah we have this break on ah an issue where there shouldn't be one. And ah the idea of revolution certainly doesn't appeal to me because quite often there is no, seemed to be no end to the slaughter which follows the oppression of people ah by a, a dictatorship. So ah my thoughts generally go along the lines of: if we can get order ah from the chaos and lift standards of people on a march towards a complete ah j-, completely just society, well, we'd be doing the right thing.' To me, with mankind, it's not so easy. It's an extremely difficult thing. For the rivalries, the jealousies ah in, in ah humans is such that it causes ah many of these problems. And some of those who advocate ah tenant sale or communism or, or some, even socialism, that when it comes to their own particular wellbeing, they've got scant respect for the other person! It's all right as a matter to talk about but it's not a matter to put into ah practice. And my idea would be that we should try to bring about reforms in a constructive way to overcome these ah maladjustments that occur today w-, which have s-, seemed to have been with us almost from the time. If ah they have ah strayed, it's strayed because of our own false development. Andrew Moore: Did you keep in touch with Cliff Walker Dixon after he left Lithgow? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes! I'd met ah Cliff ah once or twice after I … near the close of his life, I hadn't seen him. Ah I was extremely sorry to know that he had died, and when he passed away ah I wrote a le-, ... Event: Interview Paused A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: ah I wrote a letter to his sister, Molly —who was Mrs Barrigree, he married, she married ah a, a man from Adaminaby, up in the Snowy, and we knew him quite well—and ah, ah received a reply from her. They were qu-, very good families, I remarked previously. Ah to Cliff, just before he died, he'd written ah an article for a communist party publication in which he pointed out how they began their activities with the communist party, the Plebs League and so on. And how I remained a member of the Labor Party and how he had gone on to the communist party and, and what had happened in that ah period. And ah with, ah to Cliff, he was a most interesting person and … Andrew Moore: It would be your perception that ah Charlie Nelson was organising the communist party here? At time 00:32:10 Summary: Various comments about Charlie Nelson, including his role in the Lithgow CPA, his views on revolution and involvement in the Arcos Raid. Keywords: Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), JT (Jack) Lang, 'Labour Daily', Miners' Federation, Arcos Raid, James Ramsay MacDonald Andrew Moore: It would be your perception that ah Charlie Nelson was organising the communist party here? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah well, that was the viewpoint, too, of Cliff Walker: that that was actually the beginning from the loose links of ah radicals, ah of the IWW, and ah freethinkers of various kind of people who are out ah to reform and to cause changes. Well, it must be remembered, you know, that when the trade union movement decided to ah, ah send people to parliament, to elect members of parliament and form the Labor Party, that there was quite a viewpoint among trade unionists and radicals that they shouldn't have done that: that they should have insisted on ah revolutionary attitude, a trade union attitude of strikes and ah so on. Much along the lines of the old IWW, that ah the election of members of parliament would not solve any problem: that we'd be following the orthodox lines of capitalism and it would not suffice. And ah Nelson seemed to bring together that element. He was well read, well informed and ah he, perhaps, was a rather persuasive person. He led the campaign to ah defeat Jack Lang, then the control of The Labor Daily and that was another matter. He organised the Miners' Federation that changed their votes and so on. All of these are the issues of the time, but Charlie Nelson did have a most influential part and to become the national president of the min-, of the Miners Federation, placed him in a very strong position the trade union movement. Andrew Moore: His name figures in the, in the famous London raid, doesn't it? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The Arcos raid, yes. Yes, was a raid ah in London and it seemed to have been organised, arranged and ah prepared to discredit the Ramsay MacDonald of the time. And ah Nelson's name was allegedly found among papers and documents in the Arcos building. Ah he … Andrew Moore: Did the communist party have much of a success in this, say, mid-twenties to late twenties—which obviously is a time of rising over militancy? At time 00:34:18 Summary: How the popularity of the CPA was limited to the union movement in the late '20s, and Charlie Nelson's political demise. Keywords: Mr Deveney (CPA, Macquarie), Mr Winkler, Canberra, William Morris Hughes (Billy) Hughes, Arthur Fadden, Commonwealth Government Fund, Billy Orr Andrew Moore: Did the communist party have much of a success in this, say, mid-twenties to late twenties—which obviously is a time of rising over militancy? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah trade union-wise: yes. Politically: no. I was looking some time ago at some of the figures in the electorate of Macquarie. My first campaign in 1931, Deveney, whom I knew very well, who was a friend of mine, ah he ah was a communist party candidate. He got ah an insignificant vote. Not because he was not a, a, a, a good person. In matter of fact, his widow continues to live here. He was quite a decent fellow. But ah the communist party could not marshal a vote politically. Trade union-wise: yes. Ah otherwise: no. Andrew Moore: This'll be through the Miners' Fedeation? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Miners' Federation in particular. Nelson led a campaign against nationalisa-, ah, ah he was for nationalisation and control but he was against mechanisation of the industry. Saying that if you mechanise the coal mines, that you'd cause unemployment. Well, of course, the mines have been mechanised and ah it's helped to cheapen production and increased production and from that point of view ah it's a case where they've been able to adjust the changed form of industry. I remember Charlie addressing a meeting and saying: 'Well, we're going to change the course of history'—which was rather an illogical thing to say, especially from Charlie Nelson—ah whose knowledge of ah development I thought was much better than that. I had been a member of the Miners' Federation, at one time elected as returning officer of the western district of the Miners' Federation. And ah I've known Charlie quite well and ah … but he had made ah tremendous progress. One of his undoings, of course, was his involvement in The Labor Daily. And ah Winkler, who'd been a journalist on The Labor Daily, later a journalist of Canberra, helped to cause his, really his political industrial end because he got on to a slush fund matter involving William Morris Hughes—the late Billy Hughes, former prime minister, former Labor leader—and Artie Fadden. And this inquiry revealed that Nelson apparently had received money from the Commonwealth government fund which was against all the tenets of, principles of the, of, of a trade unionist, leave along a communist, who ah would resent and oppose and object to even the thought of receiving money from a government or government department, and above all, a very vigorous, vicious anti-Labor government. And that seemed to be spell the end of Charlie Nelson and I understand he commenced drinking again. May I say, just regard to Billy Orr, his, who worked so closely with him, or had been a teetotaler, very strict teetotaler, but toward the end of his career, he too had commenced to drink. And he had not, in his earlier years, ah been concerned about alcohol at all. Andrew Moore: So after you joined the Labor Party in 1923, what … well, first of all, what were you doing and what were you do, what was your motivation in seeking to become something more than just a, a rank-and-file member of the party? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, a-, I was a vigorous party member and I had been elected to the position of ah branch official of the Lithgow branch of the party. And ah after that I ah was elected as secretary of the Macquarie ALP Assembly and the Hartley ALP Assembly. This, these were the electorate bodies for the federal seat of Macquarie and the state seat of Hartley. And winning the position in the first place, I defeated a man—a friend of Chifley's, Ben Chifley's—named Albin Scanlon, who ah, ah lived later at Faulconbridge on the Blue Mountains. At time 00:37:50 Summary: How he joined the ALP (Macquarie and Hartley) in '23 and various positions he held during the '20s, including campaign manager for Chifley in '29. Keywords: Macquarie ALP Assembly, Hartley ALP Assembly, Albin Scanlon*, Faulconbridge, Joseph Benedict (Ben) Chifley, Australian Workers' Union (AWU), Australian Federated Union of Locomotive Enginemen (AFULE), Hawkesbury River, Richmond, Windsor, Bathurst, Goulburn, Bega, Taralga, Crookwell A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, a-, I was a vigorous party member and I had been elected to the position of ah branch official of the Lithgow branch of the party. And ah after that I ah was elected as secretary of the Macquarie ALP Assembly and the Hartley ALP Assembly. This, these were the electorate bodies for the federal seat of Macquarie and the state seat of Hartley. And winning the position in the first place, I defeated a man—a friend of Chifley's, Ben Chifley's—named Albin Scanlon, who ah, ah lived later at Faulconbridge on the Blue Mountains. But in my position as secretary of the Macquarie and Hartley ALP assemblies, I was close to people because in those days, our assembly provided not only for delegates from the Labor Party branches at our meetings, but also from the trade union; Miners' Federation; AWU; AFULE; Arms, Explosive, Ammunition; Ironworks and so on; Gas workers. They all were entitled—those unions affiliated with the party—to send delegates to our meeting, providing the delegates were members of the Labor Party. And so it was that it was rather a strong organisation and in my position as secretary to the Macquarie assembly … Andrew Moore: What w-, years are these? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh, most valuable and conducting campaigns. Ah … Andrew Moore: Sorry, what years were you the secretary of the … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah the ah, ah I, I think my first year as secretary would have been about 1927/28 because in Bill Chifley's ah election in '28, I was involved in his campaign. I was not campaign director. But in 1929 campaign, I was Ben's campaign director and as I showed you some time before, ah the, I received quite a lot of correspondence from Ben, advice about matters giving me instructions of his campaign—where he'd be and what he would be doing. And in those days, the Macquarie electorate was a most extensive one, ah stretching as it does from the Hawksbury River beyond Richmond, Windsor ah in the east to ah west of Bathurst, Blayney and so on, and right down the southern area to ah, almost the Goulburn. Ah Trunch Creek, Tuena, Bega, Binda, Taralga, Crookwell, all of those parts down there. And ah it needed ah quite a lot of very careful organising to win a majority vote because there were, th-, those areas in the main were not industrial areas—they were not the labour force such as we had here in Lithgow ah district. And to poll ah successfully, it was necessary to get a very heavy poll in the Lithgow area. Ah for, and we did quite good work—ah mainly on the basis of social reform, of nationalism, of Australianism, of ah giving Australian job, building Australian industry. We had the steelworks here at that time—the iron and steelworks and so on. And these were the things that really fortified us and strengthened us that we had the industries and ah from them, well, Ben Chifley was able to succeed. Andrew Moore: In the young Ben Chifley, was there any glimmering of the great prime minister to be? At time 00:41:13 Summary: The social reform focus of the Chifley campaign, and reflections about Chifley's social conscience and how he developed as a politician. Keywords: Nationalism, social reform, steel works, Bathurst District Hospital, Fred Gregory, Robert Pillans Andrew Moore: In the young Ben Chifley, was there any glimmering of the great prime minister to be? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: No, there, it was not, looking over Ben, I sought in Ben a, a man ah with ideals, a man with the true Australian sentiment, a man who wanted to make reforms, ah a man who ah sought justice in the, his wage and labour conditions and in social matters—which directed him to become a director and president of the Bathurst District Hospital. But he was ah what one would say, a true product of Australia of the soil who obtained a job in the railways and from the railways and his association with his fellow workmates had developed a, a trade union consciousness and ah with that ah, ah thoughts on politics. His first venture ah was not a success! He hadn't won his first election. But he received very good support in this area—defeating such men as Fred Gregory, who was a very fine person and secretary to the Miners Fed-, Federation, ah an extraordinary good fellow. And Tom Marr, whose name I mentioned earlier, a collector of customs and various other ones. I think Robert Pillans, a, a dour Scot, a, a very fine fellow. Ah president of the Miners Federation for many years. Thirteen times mayor of Lithgow and ah a, a strict disciplinarian and a Scot who believed in the Kirk and ah didn't want any continental Sundays when we were getting Sunday football here: he opposed it very vigorously. But these were, made a very fine stat-, a very good quality, that Ben was able to ah defeat. Ah much of his success, I think, came from the fact he, he received among other things very generous support from the AWU—the Australian Workers Union. And they had helped Ben quite a deal as well as his own union—the AFUL, Australian Federated Union of Locomotive Engine—they had also supported him. And of course, Ben had ah dug in rather deeply and ah with a crisis in '29/'30—the savage Depression, the bitter and terrible Depression, not a great Depression, a horrible, shocking thing, ah a needless thing—that Ben ah, ah of course, was a very loyal man to, to Scullin. He and Scullin had a lot in common. There was much in their characters that was in common. Scullin was a very soft, friendly person. A man, very friendly, kindly attitude. He lacked, I'm sorry to say, the strength of character to meet the problems of a, of a terrible problem, of an economic crisis. The need where the wellbeing of Australian people should get precedence and pride of place before financial deals and obligations which would deny people the necessities of life in our country where food was just in abundance. We had too much, we couldn't sell it. The world Depression had ah [indecipherable]. glutted. And yet, despite all of that, we ah yeah, ah with Scullin as prime minister, we were in serious trouble. And that leads right to the terrible time of that ah Depression when ah scandalous and horrible things happening. The Rothbury ah strike, the troubles in Rothbury where a miner named Brown was shot. Ah the, ah that ah strike period—a, a terrible thing. A thing that distressed me very greatly because Brown had ah taken no action that warranted any police ah difficulty or, or shooting above all. At time 00:44:09 Summary: The Depression of '29/'30; Scullin's failings, the terrible Rothbury riot and and the northern coal miners' wage cut. Keywords: James Henry Scullin, Rothbury strike, Mr Bown (miner), Sydney Trades & Labour Council, Stanley Bruce A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And that leads right to the terrible time of that ah Depression when ah scandalous and horrible things happening. The Rothbury ah strike, the troubles in Rothbury where a miner named Brown was shot. Ah the, ah that ah strike period—a, a terrible thing. A thing that distressed me very greatly because Brown had ah taken no action that warranted any police ah difficulty or, or shooting above all. Andrew Moore: Is more or less an innocent bystander. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: He was, he was completely innocent. He had no, there shouldn't have been any shooting at all. But above all, to a person like Brown. That distressed me very much. And the northern miners were locked out that time. The coal owners set about to ah bring about a reduction in wages and they imposed on the northern coal miners, a 12 and a half per cent wages cut. Now, I was on the Labor Party state executive at the time and ah I attended a conferences in Sydney where the miners from the north and the Miners Federation officials, together with the Sydney Trades and Labour Council and ah representatives of the Scullin government. I forget who were there, I think among others, Theodore was present. But official um ministers of government were in attendance, we discussed the problems of the north, how we could help the miners. And it was finally agreed that the miners should go back to work, accept 12 and a half per cent reduction on the understanding that everybody would work hard, bring about the defeat of the Bruce p-, ah government, and ah then ah by bringing about their defeat, we'd elect a Labor government and that the miners pay cuts would not be imposed, that their full wages would be restored. The elections were held, Labor won and ah as campaign director, I felt: well, now we're going to do something, we'll solve our problem, we've got a Labor government. But instead of carrying out their promises to restore the miners' wages, the 12 and a half per cent was imposed on all of the miners. They all had to suffer a 12 and a half per cent cut. Then pensions were cut by a similar amount. And allowances of salary—the public service salary reduction act had been ah decided on. And all of these decisions brought hardship to people and with the dole payments being at such a very low ebb at the time, ah down to a few shillings per week, young men wanting their dole were often obliged to leave home and to accept track rations to ah survive. And in doing that they would travel from place to place—often getting in a railway truck or something of the kind. And if they were to steal some goods, they were in serious trouble and the sort of thing which did occur on ah could not but otherwise expect to occur. Ah people short of food—for I know some of the unemployed around here, young men—would stay in bed till about half past ten and have a meal. Then hopefully ah they'd go out thinking: well, some friend might invite me out for dinner tonight, ah have a meal, and that will carry me over—because about six or seven shillings a week, five or six. And one cash reported by Hamilton Knight—who was our stake member here, who later became a minister in the state government, ex Miners' president, too—ah he told the story and it was published, ah and he raised it in parliament. Where a young chap out on track rations, when he got home was only getting 2 and sixpence a week. A young man with a great appetite. At time 00:48:10 Summary: More about the Depression; the Premier's Plan, international bankers, JT Lang and fighting for the workers. Keywords: Pension, dole, Public Service Service Reduction Act, Hamilton Knight, The Depression, Premier's Plan, Sir Otto Ernst Niemeyer, Jack Beasley, Ted Theodore A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah people short of food—for I know some of the unemployed around here, young men—would stay in bed till about half past ten and have a meal. Then hopefully ah they'd go out thinking: well, some friend might invite me out for dinner tonight, ah have a meal, and that will carry me over—because about six or seven shillings a week, five or six. And one cash reported by Hamilton Knight—who was our stake member here, who later became a minister in the state government, ex Miners' president, too—ah he told the story and it was published, ah and he raised it in parliament. Where a young chap out on track rations, when he got home was only getting 2 and sixpence a week. A young man with a great appetite. And these things were going with all this … and it disturbed us very much in New South Wales where we'd made our pledges to the Miners Federation that we would support them, ah where we promised the working people generally that our votes and voice would be for them and we had pensions reduced, wages and salaries reduced and we'd blindly and willingly, cravenly supported the Premier's Plan. And ah dictated by the banking bodies from the United Kingdom. Um we had Otto Niemeyer out here, and professor Gugenheim, telling us what to do and Niemeyer had said when we objected, well, we could stew in our juice and that was their feeling towards the people of Australia. In New South Wales, we fought vigorously against it and in, ah as the premier of New South Wales, ah was Jack Lang, J.T. Lang, ah he supposedly took a strong attitude against it, put forward what was called the Lang Plan as against the Premier's Plan. He had argued that we should not pay our bond while people were—debts—while people were virtually starving. And if Britain was not insisting on the payment of debts by Italy and other countries, well, they should not expect us to pay our debts and if America was prepared to forgo debts to the United Kingdom, well, there should be some adjustment made, some new measures found. And Lang, while he was here and put up a, what I thought to be a very brave fight against what was going on, trying to hold the line, the other states of the Commonwealth and the Commonwealth government with a Labor government took the other course. And the ah break was really brought to a head when Jack Beasley, who was a minister, who was a minister in the federal government had moved a motion calling for an enquiry into the spending of relief money in Sydney where it was alleged that Theodore, treasurer, was getting more than his share of money for his electorate and people going to Theodore could get jobs and other workmen, ah at Mortstock and elsewhere, couldn't find employment. And this motion moved by Beasley—which was not a censure motion—it was a simple motion without any teeth other raise the subject. Scullin took it upon himself to say: 'Well, Theodore and company, you're broken with it a-, and ah we in New South Wales have carried local autonomy declarations.' That we were not going be compelled to force, follow the Premier's Plan. That ah we ah, as a branch of the Labor Party, was a state of New South Wales, and we were not going to be dictated to. And this is where one matter that I would like the library at Canberra—in the Parliamentary Library, the National Library—to have the parliamentary handbooks made correct. Because I noticed in the records they talk of Mr Beasley as a Lang candidate and others, Teddy Ward and those, as Lang candidates. They were not Lang candidates, they were Labor Party candidates from the state of New South Wales. At time 00:52:00 Summary: How various NSW Branch ALP candidates are incorrectly called Lang candidates in Parliamentary and NLA records, and some corrections about EJ Ward. Keywords: Censure motion, Edward (Teddy) Ward, Bread Makers' Union, East Sydney, Lang Plan A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And this motion moved by Beasley—which was not a censure motion—it was a simple motion without any teeth other raise the subject. Scullin took it upon himself to say: 'Well, Theodore and company, you're broken with it a-, and ah we in New South Wales have carried local autonomy declarations.' That we were not going be compelled to force, follow the Premier's Plan. That ah we ah, as a branch of the Labor Party, was a state of New South Wales, and we were not going to be dictated to. And this is where one matter that I would like the library at Canberra—in the Parliamentary Library, the National Library—to have the parliamentary handbooks made correct. Because I noticed in the records they talk of Mr Beasley as a Lang candidate and others, Teddy Ward and those, as Lang candidates. They were not Lang candidates, they were Labor Party candidates from the state of New South Wales. And ah as distinct from the Australian Labor Party, ah New South Wales branch, state of New South Wales. And we took ah responsibility of the economic decision-making in, in this area. And a significant victory was won by us when we endorsed E.J. War-, Ted Ward, known to the people of Sydney, and the movement all over Australia. Most capable man. Would have been a brilliant man. Another product of Lithgow, by the way. He ah worked here as a clerk at the blast furnaces. Played Rugby League football here—had a few contests in Hempen Square in the boxing ring—and ah a most interesting man, a man very active in politics in Sydney with ah Webster and some other people in the Bread Carters' Union, Bread Makers Union and so on. He was active down there. But Ward was our candidate endorsed for [indecipherable]. Sydney. And ah it's interesting to read through the history of it all that ah the federal people were not going to support him if he supported the Lang Plan. Well, he was supporting the Lang Plan and the party supported him and he won and election and took his seat in parliament. And at that time, it was a very interesting crises and developing one after the other because the extraordinary situation, because ah the federal government, the Scullin government, decided to get rid of Beasley ah as one of their minister. And they had a spill motion. And Beasley was defeated, ah Frank Anstee, who was one of the most wonderful old men, one of the great men, one of the great champions of the party of other days, was defeated. And ah Senator Daly was defeated. And I always recall, ah not expertly, not thoroughly, the words of Anstee when he said ah in parliament after his defeat that if his defeat would bring about a restoration of confidence and balancing and squaring of budgets and overcome the national debt and satisfy the banking institutions that all was well in Australia and that Mr Theodore, the treasurer, was an honest man, he was happy to go. But it reminded him, he said, of the criminal who jumped over a fence and the policy rushed by and didn't get him. And he felt: 'Well, aren't I lucky that they didn't get me? Because I have solved a problem, I have saved something. And in this case, I've saved Australia. And thank God, goodbye, I'll be better off without you.' At time 00:54:49 Summary: More about the internal ALP conflict, Anstey's final words to parliament, and how Lithgow suffered greatly during the Depression. Keywords: Frank Anstey, Senator Daly, Hoskins Iron & Steel Co, Port Kembla A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And I always recall, ah not expertly, not thoroughly, the words of Anstee when he said ah in parliament after his defeat that if his defeat would bring about a restoration of confidence and balancing and squaring of budgets and overcome the national debt and satisfy the banking institutions that all was well in Australia and that Mr Theodore, the treasurer, was an honest man, he was happy to go. But it reminded him, he said, of the criminal who jumped over a fence and the policy rushed by and didn't get him. And he felt: 'Well, aren't I lucky that they didn't get me? Because I have solved a problem, I have saved something. And in this case, I've saved Australia. And thank God, goodbye, I'll be better off without you.' And this was the clever speech. It, it, it, it's a priceless little bit of ah English that's well worthwhile having republished and republished. It's a, it's a delightful thing. Andrew Moore: A very nice, ironic statement. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. Andrew Moore: And was Lithgow any worse than other centres, you think, during the Depression? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh, I think undoubtedly that was true because we suffered ah great hardship in two ways. Firstly, we lost out iron and steel industry. Hoskins Iron and Steel Company, ah under their name, shifted off to Port Kembla and established their industry at Port Kembla. The iron and steel industry was probably the biggest employer of labour. They employed more labour than any other industry from the blast furnace, the iron and steel mills, the, the making of all types of iron, fabrics. It was a particularly industry calling on the ah miners to produce lots of coal, to make coke. It killed out coke-making industry here. It, it was a, it was a disaster to Lithgow and with it, of course, came the Depression. And the two of them really gave Lithgow a very savage blow. Ah this district suffered very greatly. Ah the hardship was intense but the spirit of the people was astonishingly good because they'd rallied to one another. That cooperative spirit we talked about earlier among people that—we'd arrived from overseas to a great extent—ah that spirit of cooperation that came from northern England and was renowned in Scotland and ah among the people, or the Welsh or the Irish, that all blended in splendidly. How they helped one another and we formed ah relief ah committees here to help the unemployed. We had an unemployed association. As a matter of fact, we had two working to help the unemployed. And ah the Trades Hall Society—ah which conducted ah picture shows every night of the week, other than Sunday—they provided free picture entertainment for the unemployed, mostly giving them seats towards the front, which was not altogether the best place to be in a theatre. But they provided free seating Theatre Royal did likewise. Concerts were held, entertainments were held, of various kind. And we had a fruit and vegetable fund here where we would buy—or receive donations—of fruit and vegetable from district farmers who were unable to sell ah their products and we'd distribute that to the unemployed. To me, fortunately, I, I, I had the greatest good fortune that I was not out of work. I'd been out of work from the Vailaclude Brickyard where I'd been dismissed because of all the, because of, I think, for my trade union activity more than anything else. At time 00:57:49 Summary: The community spirit in Lithgow during the Depression, and how he got a job as a journalist. Keywords: Trades Hall Society, Irish, Scottish, Theatre Royal, 'Labour Daily' A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: But they provided free seating Theatre Royal did likewise. Concerts were held, entertainments were held, of various kind. And we had a fruit and vegetable fund here where we would buy—or receive donations—of fruit and vegetable from district farmers who were unable to sell ah their products and we'd distribute that to the unemployed. To me, fortunately, I, I, I had the greatest good fortune that I was not out of work. I'd been out of work from the Vailaclude Brickyard where I'd been dismissed because of all the, because of, I think, for my trade union activity more than anything else. And ah I'd worked at the ironworks while the steelworks, for steelworks in the steel mill. I worked at the Lith-, ah Lithgow Valley brick and pipe works there, the Lithgow Valley pottery, state coal mine, and when that ended, I had the greatest of all good fortune. I'd been doing a little bit of shorthand and I'd been going to ah night school and I managed to get a job as a journalist district correspondent of The Labor Daily which was ah just the thing for me. There was a tremendous lot of freedom to move round the district, to go to unemployed meetings, to go to unemployed jobs, work for the jobs, talk to the people on the job and this was a tremendous opportunity for me to observe the conditions of those who ah endured the harshness, the terror, the scandalous conditions o-, o-, of the Depression time. Andrew Moore: One very apt word in that is terror. That is that there um was terror from certain ah right-wing groups around. Do you remember anything about the New Guard? At time 01:00:11 Summary: New Guard activities around Lithgow during the Depression, including disrupting a meeting at Katoomba. Keywords: New Guard, Klu Klux Klan, Katoomba, Joe Lemaro, WF Sheehan, JB Martin, Lance Sharkey (CPA) Andrew Moore: One very apt word in that is terror. That is that there um was terror from certain ah right-wing groups around. Do you remember anything about the New Guard? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The New Guard were active round this district and they held ah meetings, ah clandestine ones, and occasionally they'd come out into the open. They didn't like to be identified. They'd like to do it in the Ku Klux Klan sort of fashion. They'd like to be covered. And one meeting in particular I'll always recall, was a meeting that I was having, having as a candidate for parliament in 1931 at Katoomba. And I had ah, ah Joe Lamaro, a minister in the state government. I think W.F. Sheen, who was also a minister, was there. I know Joe Martin, who was I think on the, a, a milk board member, Brother J.B. Martin, and organised the party—a very competent organiser, too. He was there. And ah there was … Andrew Moore: They tried to disrupt it, did they? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh, the tremendous interruptions. I-, and yelling and screeching and, and among other things that happened that night, the government car in which the ministers had come from Sydney were, their tyres were cut from their car. And ah shocking damage and ah their behaviour was scandalous. I had been electioneering in other place and came to the meeting ah toward the end, and when I arrived and stood on the platform in the street, Katoomba Street, Katoomba, much of the noise subsided because I knew people, I was active about the district, and they didn't like to be identified and they quietened down to a great extent. But that night, I think it was Sharkey, the communist party speaker, was having a meeting up the street and he was on a box in the street and along came some of these New Guard folk and they kicked the box from underneath him, assaulted him. Police took him away which was believed for his protection. And Sharkey had to appear before the court and re-, fined for causing disturbance. Now, it was a pretty terrible thing. I, I, I, I was not very sympathetic to the communist party … Event: Interview Paused At time 01:02:26 Summary: End of session Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:00 Summary: AS Luchetti Interviewed by Andrew Moore. Tape Three. Keywords: Anthony Sylvester (Tony) Luchetti, Andrew Moore, Australian Labor Party (ALP), Lithgow Andrew Moore: … Tony Luchetti, record by Andrew Moore, on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the parliament's bicentennial publications project. This interview is taking place today, 11 August 1983, in Lithgow. It seems to me that in many cases the police didn't act um entirely equitably. Are there any instances you can think of in, in Lithgow that occurred in that type of ah impartial … um well, biased behaviour by the police against the unemployed? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, sadly there was one particular case and ah the unemployed held a meeting at the Odd Fellows Hall—or later known as the Union Theatre—it was their usual meeting and at the meeting they decided to have a protest rally in the street. Ah the ah members of the Executive of the Unemployed came out led by Jock Jamison, later secretary of the Western Miners' Federation. And he stood on ah a box out in Bridge Street close to the police station and commenced to make a speech and a group of police, a number of police, ah had come from Sydney specially, apparently, to deal with the unemployed. It was fairly obvious that the government of the day ah had made up their mind to ill-treat the unemployed physically. And this group ah of policemen, ah jumped over a fence at ah, enclosed the police area in those times—it's not there now—and then immediately commenced using their batons, hitting the heads of anybody about. And one of the men who was really hurt in it was Jock Jamison, the chairman of the ah, ah rally—the, the employed meeting group—and several other people. At time 00:00:20 Summary: An incident involving police brutality against the unemployed in Lithgow during the Depression. Keywords: Oddfellows Hall, Union Theatre, Jock Jamieson*, Western Miners' Federation, Bridge Street, NSW Police, George Coates* (Mayor), Clerk of Petty Sessions, Communist Party of Australia (CPA) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, sadly there was one particular case and ah the unemployed held a meeting at the Odd Fellows Hall—or later known as the Union Theatre—it was their usual meeting and at the meeting they decided to have a protest rally in the street. Ah the ah members of the Executive of the Unemployed came out led by Jock Jamison, later secretary of the Western Miners' Federation. And he stood on ah a box out in Bridge Street close to the police station and commenced to make a speech and a group of police, a number of police, ah had come from Sydney specially, apparently, to deal with the unemployed. It was fairly obvious that the government of the day ah had made up their mind to ill-treat the unemployed physically. And this group ah of policemen, ah jumped over a fence at ah, enclosed the police area in those times—it's not there now—and then immediately commenced using their batons, hitting the heads of anybody about. And one of the men who was really hurt in it was Jock Jamison, the chairman of the ah, ah rally—the, the employed meeting group—and several other people. And ah the mayor of Lithgow at the time, George Coates Senior, ah a saw miller here, businessman, well, I suppose, politically was not involved in any way at all. He was, his politics would be probably non-Labor, anti-Labor. But he was fortunate to get away without being hit. Several others were injured causing quite a lot of damage. So outraged were the people at what had taken place, that a meeting was held at night ah among a select group of people which included the clerk of petty sessions at the time. Ah I think the mayor was there and ah representatives of the Lithgow Council, municipal council. I personally attended the meetings, Jock Jamieson, as was known, was a member of the communist party. But he was a person and he was an official of the unemployed. And he'd been well, brutally dealt with by the police on that occasion. Andrew Moore: I suppose there was a bit of struggle for control of the local branch of the unemployed workers movement. It seems to oscillate from being communist aligned to being more to do with the Labor Party. So I suppose in that instance you can understand that the police might have felt that they were dealing not with genuine members of the unemployed, but with ah communist agitators. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, a-, at that particular time, the unemployeds' leadership was strictly in the hands of Jamieson and those members of the ah U-, UWM—Unemployed Workers Movement—there was no shadow of doubt about it. Later on, ah the Lithgow District Unemployed Association was formed and ah they represented ah people unaffiliated, unassociated with political parties, members of the Labor Party and others. And ah but on this occasion, they, they were the unemployed and they had protested against food issue and rations and so on, and ah one of their chief complaints was about the, ah the food dockets because ah government had come to food allowances so much for food. And coupons were issued for you to go to certain stores to obtain food. At time 00:03:13 Summary: More about the police attack against the unemployed, and what happened to Jock Jamieson. Keywords: Unemployed Workers Movement (UWM), Miss Jolly Smith A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, a-, at that particular time, the unemployeds' leadership was strictly in the hands of Jamieson and those members of the ah U-, UWM—Unemployed Workers Movement—there was no shadow of doubt about it. Later on, ah the Lithgow District Unemployed Association was formed and ah they represented ah people unaffiliated, unassociated with political parties, members of the Labor Party and others. And ah but on this occasion, they, they were the unemployed and they had protested against food issue and rations and so on, and ah one of their chief complaints was about the, ah the food dockets because ah government had come to food allowances so much for food. And coupons were issued for you to go to certain stores to obtain food. And Jamieson and several were, were injured and at the meeting we held that night, we decided to set up a fund for the defence of Jamieson and ah Jamieson got convicted of some ah offence, I'm not too sure, but then an appeal and in the appeal, Miss Jolly Smith was his solicitor, and ah W.F. Sheen, a minister for health in the Labor government of New South Wales, was the barrister, and they went out to ah defend Jamieson. They thought they could ah win his case. But unfortunately he was unsuccessful. Jamieson ah was convicted. He was sent to gaol and Jamieson came out and ah that seemed to end, to a great extent, that chapter. But it was a sad and horrible thing. A few of the local police behaved rather harshly. Many of them behaved reasonably. But it was this number of troopers who, who had come from Sydney had caused the real damage and they were sent here obviously specifically to do a certain thing. And that was to injure as many as they could of those who were engaged in the demonstration for more just and equitable treatment and a better food ration. Andrew Moore: That's clear where the iron heel of the state is at certain occasions, ah times of crisis … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, it was fairly obvious because the police did not come up on their own accord. They did not just happen to be here at that time. It, they were here for the day of the meeting, the meeting's date was well known. And, and it's just interesting to know what would have occurred had the unemployed decided just to go, walked home peacefully without their ah protest meeting in the street. Andrew Moore: M'mm. There was a famous march, wasn't there, from Lithgow to Sydney in, around this time—of the unemployed? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah yes but re-, it was not noteworthy to the extent that this was. It was not so ah well known or publicised because there were so many protest meetings going on. The unrest was very, very great and it would be hard to ah, ah to say. With regard to the rally, it might have been said that Jock Jamieson and the executor of the unemployed at the time deliberately engaged in what might have been said as a provocative act. But whether it was or was not, it was no justification for the police to have assaulted those people who were merely asking for much better treatment. A more, ah for a fairer go in plain Australian. Andrew Moore: This is towards the end of ah 1932 and, of course, the major climatic and ah dramatic event of, of that period was the dismissal of the Lang Government in May, 1932. Believe you have some interesting information about that, Sir Phillip Game's actioned. At time 00:07:05 Summary: Thoughts about the dismissal of the Lang Govt in 1932, including a story told by Alfred Waugh (about Sir Phillip Game). Keywords: Sir Phillip Game, Alfred Waugh (Mayor of Albury), Sydney, New South Wales (NSW), Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, KD Parmentier & JJ Moll Andrew Moore: This is towards the end of ah 1932 and, of course, the major climatic and ah dramatic event of, of that period was the dismissal of the Lang Government in May, 1932. Believe you have some interesting information about that, Sir Phillip Game's actioned. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. I, I was particularly active in ah politics. I was on the state executor of the Labor Party. Ah Lang had declared for the good standard instead of a gold standard and, and, and wanted better treatment for the unemployed. It introduced a moratorium act to protect people's property from foreclosure and all of that sort of thing. He tried to help the people in distress. But ah Lang was ah dismissed by Governor f-, Game and ah I heard a most interesting story from ah Alfred Waugh—who was the mayor of Albury. I knew Mr Waugh very well indeed because he and I were both members of the executive of the local government association of New South Wales. And on one occasion after Alfred had come back from a tour overseas, he and I had ah a dinner at ah … a hotel in Sydney and ah at that dinner he told me of his experience overseas. He had gone overseas especially by invitation of Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands ah in the well-known and publicised air race from England, from London to Australia. Ah Permontier and Moll —the two ah Dutchmen who were entrants ah in the, in a plane—ah had really performed wonderfully well. They delivered mail on the way and so on. But they ran f-, short of fuel and it was getting late on their way to Melbourne and over Albury, they found that they'd have to land. And they were difficulty because finding a suitable place to touch down, and Alfred Waugh, the mayor, arranged with the local civic authorities to illuminate, I think it was the showground ah area in, in Albury and the plane was able to touch down there. And so grateful and so thankful were the Dutch authorities with what he had done, he was invited to go to the Netherlands. And when they were there, he was fated and well treated and received a declaration from Queen Wilhelmina and on to Melbourne, ah on to London, where he met Sir Phillip Game. Now, Sir Phillip had been a close friend of Alfred Waugh, the mayor of Albury, and frequently visited Albury to get away from the, the pressures of life as the governor of New South Wales during the difficult days of the Depression when quite a lot of ah, ah work was being done by the authorities to try to get the ah governor to dismiss the ah state Labor government led by Mr Lang. And ah the pressure was very great on Waugh and ah would make welcome Sir Phillip Game in Albury. So much so that when Waugh was in London, he met, Sir Phillip was received by him, he was a guest of Sir Phillip, and he first asked him about his job in charge of the London police. And he readily admitted he knew nothing of controlling the police but the police had many very valuable officers who did that. But the important thing arose when Sir Phillip asked Mr Waugh what was happening in New South Wales and 'How is Mr Lang?' And, 'How is he doing?' And Waugh said very clearly and quickly, he said: 'I didn't think you'd be making an enquiry of that kind?' He said: 'You, after sacking him, you're asking him about how Mr Lang is!' 'Well,' he said, 'I am interested in Mr Lang.' He said: 'I dismissed Mr, Mr Lang,' he said, 'because I was under pressure to do it.' He said: 'I was virtually compelled to do it—I had no alternative.' And he said: 'I'd like you to know that as far as I'm concerned, I think Australia's got two very great financiers. One is Jack Lang and the other one is Ted Theodore. And Theodore's the federal treasurer.' And he said: 'Theodore's a very competent man, a very brilliant man and,' he said, 'Lang's a very great treasurer.' And he said: 'I am concerned.' And he said: 'I've like you to know that. His, his dismissal was not because I wanted to dismiss him but because I was obliged to dismiss him.' Andrew Moore: Yes, I think there's a lot more to be said about the dismissal of the Lang government than the mere breaking of, of the law. Um … At time 00:10:53 Summary: Continues about the Lang dismissal, including the lesser known facts, and thoughts about Whitlam's dismissal. Keywords: John Thomas (Jack, JT) Lang, Ted Theodore, AB Piddington, Edward Gough Whitlam, Sir John Kerr Andrew Moore: Yes, I think there's a lot more to be said about the dismissal of the Lang government than the mere breaking of, of the law. Um … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the law was stretched to a very great extent. And among my papers, I've got a statement from A.B. Piddington. One of the—you saw that—one of the great brains. Ah one of the ah a grand man who tried to do some useful things for the country and many humanitarian acts and arbitration matters and constitutional matters and ah A.B. Piddington in his ah statement really set out the position rather clearly, I thought. It seemed to me that if you have a government elected by the people, he'll run, and he tries to really do a job for the people in difficult times, you're in a perilous position with inner authority that want, that will take almost any step to upset it. Very much perhaps like l-, Gough Whitlam found when Sir John Kerr dismissed him. 'Cause our memories are so short, so many people had completely forgotten Lang's dismissal. And I was rather astonished, around about that time, you could hardly get people who, who could recall the dismissal of Jack Lang. Had they remembered that and built a political campaign to try to insulate it from that interference in the future, we'd have been acting very wisely. Andrew Moore: For you personally, these are very auspicious years. This is the start of your attempts at parliamentary, at a parliamentary career. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: It was a most exciting period because things were happening ah that were completely unexpected. I had been Mr Chifley's campaign director in 1929 and we came into the 1930s being a delegate to a federal conference at Canberra, one of New South Wales six delegates. We were the very representative delegation that we were of types of people from the Labor Party of New South Wales. At time 00:13:24 Summary: More about the political climate for the ALP in the early '30s including forming the ALP State of New South Wales. Keywords: Chifley Campaign, Canberra, delegate, federal conference, Macquarie District Assembly, James Scullin, Ted Theodore, dole, poverty, Australian Labor Party State of NSW A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: It was a most exciting period because things were happening ah that were completely unexpected. I had been Mr Chifley's campaign director in 1929 and we came into the 1930s being a delegate to a federal conference at Canberra, one of New South Wales six delegates. We were the very representative delegation that we were of types of people from the Labor Party of New South Wales. And then there was this crisis at Canberra: the dismissal of Lang and all of these matters. Ah Mr Chifley decided to continue to support the federal party. The Macquarie District Assembly, the official Labor body in the Macquarie electorate gave him 14 days to make up his mind whether he's staying with the local machine, with the local party or whether he'd continue to support Scullin, the federal party. And Mr Chifley clearly made up his mind to support the federal government, Jim Scullin, and ah had made it abundantly clear, too, that he was going to support federal platform—not anybody's policy. And he said whether it was Ted Theodore's or Jack Lang's, he wouldn't support it. Well, we here—as we, people were generally New South Wales—wanted a break from what was going on with the dull, the hunger, the poverty, the surplus of food, the difficulties of farmers, the unemployment in manufacturing industry. We wanted jobs to be found. And so we broke with the federal and established our party, clearly, as the Australian Labor Party state of New South Wales. And that was clearly written. And under that heading, we continued to function, ah nominate candidates for parliament—some being elected, and taking their places in the national parliament and in New South Wales. Every member elected was a member of the state party of New South Wales. The Australian Labor Party, state of New South Wales. And ah I should like just to say this because I think the National Library and a parliamentary handbook ought to be brought up to date and made clear: that we shouldn't publish matter which is plain propaganda or the views of the media or political campaigners. Now candidates selected from New South Wales were Labor men of the, from the state of New South Wales. They were not Lang candidates. We were never Lang candidates. Lang was the dominant political figure, he was the premier most of the time in New, for New South Wales during those difficult times. Later was B.S.B. Stevens as premier. But Mr Lang—although the leader and a dominant figure who visited other states to spread his gospel of the Lang Plan—we were Labor candidates. And here, in Macquarie, I had the unhappy position of taking a strong stand against the federal parties, cutting in wages and pensions, allowances, ah seeing a, a people deprived of the necessities of life to pay the bond holders overseas, that I support the state body. And ah when ah the local organisation called nominations for a candidate for Macquarie, I nominated Austin Burke, a municipal and [indecipherable]. employees union, a former miner—he nominated. At time 00:15:55 Summary: How he wants to set the parliamentary (and NLA) records straight about this period; what being an ALP State of NSW candidate meant, and some details of the '31 election. Keywords: Lang candidate, BSB Stevens, Austin Burke, WP Matthews, Mt Victoria, blue Mountains, JN Lawson, Liberal Party of Australia A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Now candidates selected from New South Wales were Labor men of the, from the state of New South Wales. They were not Lang candidates. We were never Lang candidates. Lang was the dominant political figure, he was the premier most of the time in New, for New South Wales during those difficult times. Later was B.S.B. Stevens as premier. But Mr Lang—although the leader and a dominant figure who visited other states to spread his gospel of the Lang Plan—we were Labor candidates. And here, in Macquarie, I had the unhappy position of taking a strong stand against the federal parties, cutting in wages and pensions, allowances, ah seeing a, a people deprived of the necessities of life to pay the bond holders overseas, that I support the state body. And ah when ah the local organisation called nominations for a candidate for Macquarie, I nominated Austin Burke, a municipal and [indecipherable]. employees union, a former miner—he nominated. And W.P. Matthews, from Mount Victoria, who was a Blue Mountains, he nominated. I won the selection with 518 votes. Mr Burke had 291 and Mr Matthews: 221. And when the election was held, Mr ah Chifley, unhappily was defeated. J.N. Lawson was elected as member ah for Macquarie and so it was that the seat of La-, for Labor was lost. I regret to say that Mr Chifley beat me by about two and a half thousand votes and ah Mr Lawson was some 8,000 votes ahead of Mr Chifley. And so Mr Lawson, Liberal, became the member for Macquarie. Andrew Moore: It's um an awkward position for you in more than one way, isn't it? You had a, enjoyed a, a close relationship with ah Ben Chifley, as campaign director in Lithgow district. So was there any personal animosity or … At time 00:18:00 Summary: His relationship with Chifley during this time of state-federal tensions. Keywords: Seat of Lawson, Arthur Blakely, Broken Hill, David Watkins*, Newcastle, Newtown Andrew Moore: It's um an awkward position for you in more than one way, isn't it? You had a, enjoyed a, a close relationship with ah Ben Chifley, as campaign director in Lithgow district. So was there any personal animosity or … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah to me personally: there was none because previously, Mr Chifley and I had the happiest relationship and he had hinted at one time that I should more or less prepare myself to be a candidate for the Lawson which took in the Mudgee area—not far from this district. And ah I would have had a, a, a rather a good chance o-, of winning that seat. But unhappily, we were fighting on principles. We were fighting on issues. And just as Mr Chifley stood loyally and resolutely by the side and supporting ah Mr Scullin, the federal ah leader, who was then prime minister of Australia, I took the other [indecipherable]. and ah we worked hard, and the people came to support the ah Labor Party of New South Wales. And I'd like to make it clear that in that 1931 election, every federal candidate supporting Mr Scullin, everyone was defeated with exception of two—Blakely, Arthur Blakely at Broken Hill, the barrier. He survived that election. And Davie Watkins at Newcastle: he was not defeated. All the other federal members ah were defeated. Including: Scullin; ah Theodore, who was the treasurer; and ah the Rileys and others round Newca-, ah Newtown. And ah the other candidates all suffered defeat but I was unsuccessful and it's very obviously a good reason because Mr Chifley was now an outstanding personality. Andrew Moore: You had a very high regard, though, as well, for Jack Lang. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I, I, I considered Jack Lang as one of the … At time 00:19:55 Summary: His high regard for Jack Lang, with anecdotes, and comments about JB Kilburn. Keywords: 'Advance Australia Fair', 'Lang and Socialism: A Study in the Great Depression', Robert Cooksey, Mr McNamara, John George Kilburn, John Curtin A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I, I, I considered Jack Lang as one of the … Andrew Moore: It's not just a question of, of official policy that … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: No, no, no. I regard Mr Lang as one of the great leaders of the labour movement ah in the history of this country because he did try to do basic things necessary for the wellbeing of people, and ah he, he, he, he was a thorough man, and looking back over the years and thinking of Mr Lang and ah the meetings to which I attended and the conferences held, well, Lang would speak on a subject and he'd get on to a theme and he'd follow it through. And so often do members of parliament start to talk about one matters and in no time, they've gone off on a tangent on to something entirely different and they're wandering from place to place like bees from bloom to bloom, from flower to flower, and they won't continue to discuss in detail one matter. Lang did try to do that. Lang was a great Australian, and he was the one leader in the earliest time that insisted that we should have 'Advance Australia Fair,' as our anthem. And at his functions, in New South Wales, we had 'Advance Australia Fair' before we adopted it nationally as the Australian song. Andrew Moore: Historical opinion, though, about Jack Lang is divided to the extent that ah, ah many people—most clearly Rob Cooksey in his book, Lang and socialism, look at the degree to which the rhetoric of Lang's ah rather populist ah style was misplaced and that instead of actually championing the workers' interests and doing so through socialisation units, that while that was the external experience of things, in fact, he was trying to dampen down the ardour of the socialisation units run by McNamara and Kilburn and others. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Well, I, I think that probably that is right finally. But a-, actually, in, in the, ah whilst he may have taken that ah stand against the socialisation and, and discouraged their development, and I was a member of the socialisation units in those days, and I must say, but for McNamara and for Kilburn, I've got the greatest admiration, and as a member of parliament and a union official, I think Kilburn was one of the very best that I knew. He was an honest man and that's saying a lot. And when I speak of honesty, it brings to my mind something that Jack Curtain said at a conference when, ah, ah that he addressed in Sydney during the difficult times. And he, his remarks were these: 'If a man is inherently rotten and corrupt, no party label makes him any good.' And one thing about Jack Kilburn, that he was a thoroughly man. He was a member of the legislative council, and when Stevens altered the rules to ah, for the election of legislative councillors and positions, ah it was alleged to have been bought in the new, newly constructed council. And a suggestion was made that a local personality was receiving money so that he could get the votes for people to elect Mr Trautwein to the legislative council. B-, ah Kilburn never succumbed to anything like that because he voted for himself in every ballot. So his ballot was accounted: his vote was recorded. That he r-, voted for himself. And ah as for Lang though, he was doing the practical things. He protected the interests of people. He protected the interests of trade unions. And the seamen, even when they're on strike from the over-, overseas, he provided them with meals at the railway refreshment rooms. Who paid for them in particular, it's alleged that they were paid for ah and the books had to be audited, but who paid for them: I don't know. But they were being fed at the railway refreshment rooms in Sydney. Andrew Moore: This is during the period of the first Lang government? At time 00:23:34 Summary: Reasons he (Tony) didn't win the '34 election despite having the support of the local people. Keywords: Trade union, Premier of NSW, Monier Pipeworks, Campbell Roy, Fred French, RB Holden, Amalgamated Engineering Union (AEU), George Shoot, Bathurst, E Mara, Portland, Joseph Benedict (Ben) Chifley, Mr Knox Andrew Moore: This is during the period of the first Lang government? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, during that period. Ah while arguments might be used against Lang in the closing period of his parliamentary life when he was elected to the federal parliament, ah I don't know so much about that. But I do know while the period the premier of New South Wales had a most difficult task, he maintained the state-owned industries, the abattoirs, the brickyards, the pipe works, Monier Pipe Works and so on. All of these industries which were state-owned were continued by Lang, and while we might have ah disagreed on some issues, ah it was not so generally. But I would like just to say a word about the 1934 election, too, if you don't mind because this was an important one. It was held, ah a selection was held on 22 January 1934, and the candidate for selection was Campbell Roy—president of the Miners' Federation. Fred French, Miners' Federation. R.B. Holden—an A.U. man from Bathurst, who worked on the railway. George Shute—the businessman ah, ah from Bathurst. And E. Marris, a miner from the Portland district. Now I won that selection of 390 votes to Mr Roy's 227 to Mr French's 20 ah to 49, to Mr Holden's 35, to Mr Shute's 20 and to Mr Marris, 20. I won with an absolute vote. That election, which took place, ah I beat Ben Chifley by some 4,000 votes. And unhappily while my, some more than 90 per cent of my preferences went to Mr Chifley in '31, I only had barely 60 per cent of Mr Chifley's preferences in '34. Andrew Moore: Arguably, if you'd have had Chifley's preferences then you would have been … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh, had, had Mr Chifley's preference come my way, I would certainly have won, and among all the papers, I noticed ah with a certain ah humour, that I'd received a telegram from Mr Knox, of the Journalists' Association at a journalist ball in Sydney asking me to loan him my gold pass, as he thought I was certain to be elected. And had the preferences been right, I certainly would have been elected. And whilst I won the selection with 391, actually on votes it was disallowed on very flimsy reasons. I'd poll 135 votes to the other candidates 31. It was clearly indicated that I had the support of the local people. And I'd like to go on just quickly now to 1936 when candidates were being selected for the 1937 election. And at that time, there was quite an array of candidates nominated. And ah I was quite astonished to find that while I was nominated by Lithgow ALP, the Ivanhoe, Lidgedale State Mine Steel works, Vailaclude, Lithgow Valley and Hermitage Miners Lodgers and the Bathurst ALP and Lithgow AFUL and Bathurst AFUL. Lithgow, Bathurst and Katoomba blaming ALP branches. Mr Chifley was nominated for selection. Now this exposes that nonsense of talking about Lang candidates, Lang member. For Mr Chifley, nominated in that selection ballot for 1936, nominated correctly, properly, by members of the Bathurst branch. And another candidate was R.E. O'Halloran, an ex-state member from Eastern suburbs of Sydney. Nominated by some members of the Miners' Federation. At time 00:26:43 Summary: Some further comments about the nonsense of 'Lang' candidates with reference to nomination and selection ballots for the '37 election (in '36). Keywords: Ivanhoe/Lisdale State Mines, Vale of Clwydd, Lithgow AFULE, Katoomba, Blayney ALP, RE O'Halloran, SJ Sidleckie*, Blackheath, Cambridge Park Branch ALP A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Lithgow, Bathurst and Katoomba blaming ALP branches. Mr Chifley was nominated for selection. Now this exposes that nonsense of talking about Lang candidates, Lang member. For Mr Chifley, nominated in that selection ballot for 1936, nominated correctly, properly, by members of the Bathurst branch. And another candidate was R.E. O'Halloran, an ex-state member from Eastern suburbs of Sydney. Nominated by some members of the Miners' Federation. S.J. Sydleki, from Blackheath, men, nominated by the Blackhealth and Cambridge Park branch of the A.L.P. And ah the ballot was held on 17 November 1936 and I polled 544 votes. Mr Chifley: 221. Mr Sydleki: 50. Mr O'Halloran: 9. Absolute majority for me was 264 votes! And in this ballot, again, there were certain votes disallowed which favoured me. And ah clearly, I won that selection well and truly. And we've been talking about Mr Lang and I'd like just to mention a matter here regarding Mr Lang and my campaign of that period. I was narrowly defeated and ah basically the reason of my defeat, I didn't poll a vote in the Lithgow, Wolairoween, Portland industrial area that I'd hoped for. To win the Macquarie seat in those distant days, which ah for the large electorate stretching almost to Goulburn and past Richmond, Windsor. There is necessary a poll at least ah 3,000 and three, three to one majority here. That was necessary. You had to get a very big poll, in, in the Lithgow, Portland, Cullen Bullen, Wang areas, and because of the Glen Davis, Newnes area. At time 00:28:27 Summary: Jack Lang and his (Tony's) defeat in '37, including details about the electorate, pre-selection, polling, and GF Davis. Keywords: Wallerawang, Cullen Bullen, Glen F Davis, Newnes, Wolgan Valley, Cobbitty Valley*, Di Davies* (Miner's Federation), Taralga A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: To win the Macquarie seat in those distant days, which ah for the large electorate stretching almost to Goulburn and past Richmond, Windsor. There is necessary a poll at least ah 3,000 and three, three to one majority here. That was necessary. You had to get a very big poll, in, in the Lithgow, Portland, Cullen Bullen, Wang areas, and because of the Glen Davis, Newnes area. Now, Mr Lang had shown tremendous interest in this. He had visited Newnes, he had worked and looked over it. And this answers, to some extent, the question of socialisation and national ownership. Mr Lang insisted that the industry should not be handed over to G.F. Davis, a private entrepreneur, who, who'd been engaged in Davis gelatine and other activities, but it should be conducted by the state and federal government. And he had been to Newnes in the Wolgan Valley, which parallels the Capertee Valley where Glen Davis is established. And he supported a, a proposal by experts, Conacher and Critten and others. The tongue should be put through the mountains to link the Wolgan Valley with its works, its industry, its railway, its water supply, its coalmines, with the Capertee Valley and the shale brought from Glen Davis side, the Capertee Valley, to the retorts and the established industry at Newnes, which had functioned efficiently and well. And he argued that very strongly and quite properly. But the unemployed around Lithgow and business people around here, they were not happy about that. They wanted jobs and they wanted them immediately. And if G.F. Davis could find jobs quickly, that was going to make them happy because people with jobs would be people with spending m-, power that had money to go to the shops and that would be, bring prosperity to a very dispirited industry. And an interesting thing was that Dye Davies, who'd been general secretary of the Miners' Federation, he joined the staff. Yes, he joined the staff of G. F. Davis and gave some strength to G. F. Davis's plan to go to Glen Davis. But to me, Lang was right. But it wasn't good for me. I'd won big votes through the rural areas elsewhere. Taralga, I was the first one to get a majority since Davy Hall was there some 1727— Event: Interview Paused A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the tragic news for me was that whilst I'd polled very well throughout the electorate generally, in this: the key area with a victory in Macquarie, I'd not poll a vote, I required. I polled about 5 to 2 vote which was not sufficient. Two and a half to one—I need to poll three to one. And at Taralga, among my friends that night who were optimistic, they were overjoyed with the vote from Lithgow, they thought it was tremendous. It was not good enough, I knew it. And having twice lost previously, you can take it that I went to bed with a very heavy heart that last, that night because I felt: 'Well Tony, you've had your chance. You've been given every opportunity, your friends have voted for you in preselection and you've failed. This seems to be the end of your parliamentary venture.' Andrew Moore: 'Cause in fact, the 1940s were a fairly quiet time for you politically, what were you doing then? What other activities were you involved in? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, in 1940, I was active in ways—I remained active in the Labor Party branch. I was active, you know, in the community activity and ah an achievement was: to succeed in winning a council, Lithgow city council election—or the municipal council as it was then. We were not a, a city. And I led a team of Labor candidates and in 1941, we won a resounding victory. And in 1942, I became the mayor of Lithgow. And ah we were young people with strong ideas and keenness to do things and among the immediate problem for Lithgow was a water supply. And ah with regard to water, ah we were in dire straits because there was nothing available locally. At time 00:32:12 Summary: His political involvements during the '40s, including becoming Mayor of Lithgow in '42, and how they tackled the water crisis. Keywords: Lithgow City Council, ALP NSW Branch, Oberon, Blaxland, Fish River Water Supply Scheme, Joe Cahill, Glen Davis (NSW), Bungleboori, Newnes Junction, Oakey Park, World War Two (WW2), Defence Department, Bofors gun, Bowenfels, Clarence River A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, in 1940, I was active in ways—I remained active in the Labor Party branch. I was active, you know, in the community activity and ah an achievement was: to succeed in winning a council, Lithgow city council election—or the municipal council as it was then. We were not a, a city. And I led a team of Labor candidates and in 1941, we won a resounding victory. And in 1942, I became the mayor of Lithgow. And ah we were young people with strong ideas and keenness to do things and among the immediate problem for Lithgow was a water supply. And ah with regard to water, ah we were in dire straits because there was nothing available locally. So early in '41, '42, I called a meeting, invited council representatives to come from Bathurst, Turim, Abercrombie on the Bathurst side. Ah Katoomba, Blackhealth, Blue Mountain councils. Three separate councils down there in those days. They came to Lithgow, they met with Oberon, Blaxland and Lithgow and we discussed the Fish River Water Supply Scheme. And at that meeting was Joe Carl, then minister for works and local government in New South Wales—later to be the premier—and ah Lithgow, Blaxland and Oberon agreed that we'd support the Fish River Scheme at Oberon. We decided to put in £102,000 that we had available for a water scheme. Blaxland had some £80,000 for a water scheme, and Oberon decided to put in a sum of money. Not a very great sum of money but they decided to put in some money. And the federal government, the Labor government, were prepared to finance this scheme because they wanted water for Glen Davis. They were short-sighted in a way because there was a running stream at Glen Davis, they could have ah banked up and stored water, had a reservoir there. But in any case, they wanted water for Glen Davis and they came along thankfully and we agreed to have the water scheme and everything started from there to provide a valuable water supply for this area. In addition, we put another supplementary scheme at ah Bungleboori up on the mountains past Newnes Junction—deep in the gully there—and put a pump on the water there, on dam there. Pumped water into our own catchment scheme up Farmers Creek beyond Oaky Park, and that provided water for the people of Lithgow. And with the war, in a very bad state with great difficulties, we had to do much in defence requirements, help to put in new gas lines to the Small Arms Factory, help the defence department by putting up ah guns out in the district here. Some Bofors. Andrew Moore: Where were they at? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: At Murrah. Out in the ah Bowenfels area. Up at Clarence on the mountains. We also ah … Andrew Moore: You're involved in, in civil defence during that period? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I, I was the chief warden in a number zone of protection. We had regular meetings weekly. We had a very keen organisation, a very vigorous organisation. A lot of dedicated people anxious to do things. There were people looking for opportunities to ah be active in some form of, you know, defence work. And as chief warden I had a very full time because I was to be available 24 hours a day and we were not allowed to have lights on our motor vehicles at night, we had them hooded and so on. And remember in particular, when the midget subs came into Sydney, we got the message here: number one zone of protection, lights out and so on. And ah I had to rush up to the council chambers where I had my present, my office up there as chief warden. And ah we had to prepare for any eventuality. Of course, nothing happened up here. The subs in the Sydney harbour was as far as it had gone. But we had our regular meeting and there was great revival in first aid activities, St John's Ambulance folk and others were very busy teaching people how to deal with cases of injury and so on. At time 00:35:36 Summary: His role as chief warden in civil defence in the '40s; including the midget sub attack, first aid and the local small arms factory. Keywords: Chief Warden in Number One Zone of Protection, midget submarine attack, Sydney Harbour, St John's Ambulance, small arms factory, air raid, war workers' housing, Littleton, Lithgow Woollen Mills A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And remember in particular, when the midget subs came into Sydney, we got the message here: number one zone of protection, lights out and so on. And ah I had to rush up to the council chambers where I had my present, my office up there as chief warden. And ah we had to prepare for any eventuality. Of course, nothing happened up here. The subs in the Sydney harbour was as far as it had gone. But we had our regular meeting and there was great revival in first aid activities, St John's Ambulance folk and others were very busy teaching people how to deal with cases of injury and so on. And in the practical thing, we had to help with the Small Arms Factory. Trenches were dug in the paddock ah on the western side of the Small Arms Factory so that in case of a raid there'd be places for the workforce to go, to shelter, during any raid period. We obtained the use of the high school building—which is not the present high school but which was one in Mort Street—as our number one place for civil aid, for any casualties and so on. This was to be so. But the important this is: we provided many houses ah with the aid of state and federal government. War workers' housing known as duration houses. Quick ones to be erected, erected quite quickly. And then ah the other better type of houses out in the Littleton area and out towards the woollen mills. It was a time of great activity, tremendous activity. And when this was over, I tried to enlist in the RAAF. And ah I had a most interesting experience. I went to Sydney and was interviewed and had an aptitude test and seemed to get along fairly well. And then to the medical test and I survived that after a few enquires, a few scars from riding a horse through the scrub down the Wolgan Valley, chasing some cattle I was mustering—which I thought was necessary to get in before going off to see the Japs. And ah I g-, filled in all the necessary papers, made my allotment and ah everything was fixed up ready to go and the day I should have got word to join the service, got word to go back for a further x-ray. And they put in a larger frame x-ray and after the x-ray had been viewed I was told that I was not required and my health didn't reach the high standards required. I got than in written form. And I went home very concerned because I thought: 'What's wrong with my health? I've d-, I've been out in the bush roughing it, I've played Rugby League football, I tried to be a boxer. I've been involved in lots of vigorous things and ah worked in heavy industry, very heavy industry. The jobs I'd had in the main, they demanded a lot of strength and physical ability. And ah I hurried home to Lithgow and saw my doctor, a Doctor McArthur, and I got a brief to go straight to the hospital to be x-rayed and a Mr Outoside, who was the radiologist, ah had me x-rayed promptly and he was good enough to tell me the, what he could see on the, the print afterwards. At time 00:37:50 Summary: What happened when he tried to enlist in the RAAF. Keywords: Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), tuberculosis (TB) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And they put in a larger frame x-ray and after the x-ray had been viewed I was told that I was not required and my health didn't reach the high standards required. I got than in written form. And I went home very concerned because I thought: 'What's wrong with my health? I've d-, I've been out in the bush roughing it, I've played Rugby League football, I tried to be a boxer. I've been involved in lots of vigorous things and ah worked in heavy industry, very heavy industry. The jobs I'd had in the main, they demanded a lot of strength and physical ability. And ah I hurried home to Lithgow and saw my doctor, a Doctor McArthur, and I got a brief to go straight to the hospital to be x-rayed and a Mr Outoside, who was the radiologist, ah had me x-rayed promptly and he was good enough to tell me the, what he could see on the, the print afterwards. And he said: 'Well, the reason you're being discharged and they don't want you is your age,' he said, 'plus the fact that in your youth, when you were quite young, you had ah TB for a while, you had a scare of TB but fresh and good food and, and good work, you've helped to throw it off but it's left some scars and nolls on your lung.' And this is the sort of life that I had around about ah '40. And it's a very, very full life and I was trying to earn a living by selling life insurance, which meant quite a lot of activity to get sufficient money for a newly married man, as I was married in 1939. Andrew Moore: Where did you meet your wife? At time 00:40:14 Summary: Story of how he met his wife, his marriage in '39, and more about his community involvement during the war. Keywords: Beatrice May Titus (wife), private profiteering, returned soldier Andrew Moore: Where did you meet your wife? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I met my wife first at ah Katoomba, a New Year's Eve ah function. And New Year at Katoomba was a very happy, great old time. And May attended a function there and so did I, and a close friend of mine who married May's sis-, sister, May, Beatrice May Titus from a, an old pioneering family from the metal industry. I think they were Cornish people ah and they were gold miners, metal miners and so on. And ah May was a schoolteacher and a very highly intelligent, wise person, and to me, she seemed to be an excellent person for a reluctant bridegroom. And ah I was very happy to finally—after a very long courtship—to marry her on 3 June 1939. And as we had a family coming along, well, I, you can just imagine just how busy I remained and continued to be. An executive officer with football and all these things and sporting activities associated with everybody worthwhile and in the wartime, I tried to clean up any private profiteering in, in raising of money for war purposes. I established a, a, a combined patriotic appeals committee which would see to it that those who needed money g-, got it. I, when the boys were coming back from the war, the, many of the lads whom I knew came back in very sad condition, we helped to make them welcome and to re-establish them with their people and their families. And all of these were very demanding activities over that period. Andrew Moore: Probably the, the backdrop to your parliamentary career—and this is ah probably an appropriate moment to consider it—um is the issue of Glen Davis, a forgotten moment in Australian Labor history but a very important one. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the theme of Glen Davis is a theme that should never be forgotten because it's the theme of Australians doing something for Australia. Developing industry in Australia, necessary industry, vital industry. You know, it's so strange and, and, and improper. Ah see-, seeing some mental deficiency that in industries that we need so much in peace in war and in war we find so much being said about what we should be doing and how we'll attend to great problems of the time and reform after a war. And yet, Glen Davis, which functioned during the Second World War, providing the necessary, necessary oil, ah petrol, kerosene and fuels of various kind, oil for the navy and so on—that this industry, the war hadn't been over so very long. 1951, the industry was closed. At time 00:42:10 Summary: How the destroying of Glen Davis (and his concern for Australian industry) is the backdrop to his parliamentary career. Keywords: Commonwealth Oil Corporation (Comic Opera Company), 'The Bulletin', William Morris (Billy) Hughes, shale oil, flow oil, Ulan, Rylestone A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, the theme of Glen Davis is a theme that should never be forgotten because it's the theme of Australians doing something for Australia. Developing industry in Australia, necessary industry, vital industry. You know, it's so strange and, and, and improper. Ah see-, seeing some mental deficiency that in industries that we need so much in peace in war and in war we find so much being said about what we should be doing and how we'll attend to great problems of the time and reform after a war. And yet, Glen Davis, which functioned during the Second World War, providing the necessary, necessary oil, ah petrol, kerosene and fuels of various kind, oil for the navy and so on—that this industry, the war hadn't been over so very long. 1951, the industry was closed. This is a stark and terrible thing. And when I think of Glen Davis and I link to Glen Davis the problem of Newnes—which had been established by the Commonwealth Oil Corporation and named after Newnes, the great ah publisher in the United Kingdom who had contributed to the money necessary to establish the oil industry at Newnes. S-, Commonwealth Oil Corporation, The Bulletin, the radical paper of the time would call it the Common Copra Company. But they had set out to produce coke, paraffin wax, kerosene, benzene, naphtha, ah coke and ah the coke from the coal in the valley for the steelworks at Lithgow, for the blast furnace and the steel furnaces. All of these things were made there. And Glen, and then, like Glen Davis, both to be not only closed by a government, but utterly destroyed by the government. And they're all linked to the central thing, the theme of oil, of multinationals, of big companies dominating and controlling the political scene of a country because just before ah the closure of Glen Davis and after closure of Newnes, ah we found the Commonwealth government selling out Commonwealth oil refineries. Which Billy Hughes, who had left the Labor Party, expelled from the Labor Party, had helped to establish, and who resented seeing it destroyed. This was destroyed, Glen Davis was destroyed. And at Glen Davis, as in Newnes, you go down there if you visit the area and all you'll find is piles of brick, the debris and all the, what is left of a destroyed industry. A case of national vandalism of the worst kind. I could understand if an industry had to be closed for economic reasons, but why should it be destroyed. And yet, Glen Davis—ah with all of its possibility, which could have been put in mothballs, need be. They could have had ah, ah efforts made there to ah have gone along with research. A-, a-, to develop ah some ideas of the properties in oil from shale which perhaps the flow oil did not possess. And these things could have continued to have been done. And in any case, at Glen Davis and the Capertee Valley, the shale remains available there to be won. Quite a good deal. And up to Capertee Valley, Baerami, Wollar, Ulan and so on. Out from Kandos and the, and through that area of Rylstone. There's shale to be found and yet, Glen Davis. Whatever the story might be told. And the men fought valiantly to try and keep it. So much so that they had to stay in strike. They went into the mine and they stayed there hoping to direct public attention to the issue and cause some action to be taken which would, might ah compel the government to keep the industry open. And ah as a newly elected member of parliament in 1951, it's one of my first duties to go to Glen Davis, to meet the people down there. My first ah maiden speech in parliament, I referred to Glen Davis, I spoke about Glen Davis ah as I had a keen interest in it. And ah my wife and I went down into the mine and met the men who were underground there and talked with them, discussed with them their problem. And I frankly told them, too, that although they were staying in, it was a display of strength and drawing attention that they couldn't hope to win in the long run because, well, that oil was being denied the nation, denied the country. There were still great supplies of oil flowing in. The multinationals were Shell and ah the rest of them would see to that. At time 00:46:05 Summary: Continues about the end of Glen Davis, including his meeting with striking miners, maiden speech in '51, and comments about the closing of Newnes. Keywords: Shell Oil, Fell Company, Granville, Douglas Fell, John Fell A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And ah as a newly elected member of parliament in 1951, it's one of my first duties to go to Glen Davis, to meet the people down there. My first ah maiden speech in parliament, I referred to Glen Davis, I spoke about Glen Davis ah as I had a keen interest in it. And ah my wife and I went down into the mine and met the men who were underground there and talked with them, discussed with them their problem. And I frankly told them, too, that although they were staying in, it was a display of strength and drawing attention that they couldn't hope to win in the long run because, well, that oil was being denied the nation, denied the country. There were still great supplies of oil flowing in. The multinationals were Shell and ah the rest of them would see to that. And ah the ah British companies, the American companies and others would all provide the oil needed because they were all interested in the destruction of Glen Davis. And it should be remembered here that when Newnes was closed, and before Newnes was closed, the ah Fell company was sending certain equipment—a boiling, boilers and other things—to ah, over to Gore Bay in the North Shore, and to the Shells present refinery site—ah e-, e-, out from ah Granville. They were sending material from Newnes and Hartley Vale and that down there to help, to establish those places. And after Newnes closed, Douglas Fell, a son of John Fell, who was the receiver of the sh-, Commonwealth Oil Corporation, Douglas became the assistant general manager in Australia of the Shell Oil Company. A link that you cannot overlook its importance. And while Douglas was a keen man and eventually died, I understand, from cancer, ah he, he did ah play a part in helping in oversee oil company which allowed us to see the death and destruction of one at Newnes. Glen Davis died, Newnes dies. Newnes survived one year with a profit with Mr Petrie as manager for 8 months out of 12. The whole industry he properly managed and controlled. And finally, Lang's point of view about Glen Davis was virtually true because finally, the government had to take over the management of it. And an anti-Labor government was there to close it but if the Labor government had controlled it from the beginning, instead of having some Americans round there giving them bad advice in regard to retorting and other practices, they would a-, ah, ah really taken advantage of the wealth of information which was available in this country from Scotsmen and others who had been involved in the shale oil industry and knew it so thoroughly. At time 00:48:38 Summary: The role of multinationals and politics in the closing of Glen Davis and Newnes. Keywords: Mr Petrie, retort (mining), United States of America (USA), Great Britain, Brisbane A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Glen Davis died, Newnes dies. Newnes survived one year with a profit with Mr Petrie as manager for 8 months out of 12. The whole industry he properly managed and controlled. And finally, Lang's point of view about Glen Davis was virtually true because finally, the government had to take over the management of it. And an anti-Labor government was there to close it but if the Labor government had controlled it from the beginning, instead of having some Americans round there giving them bad advice in regard to retorting and other practices, they would a-, ah, ah really taken advantage of the wealth of information which was available in this country from Scotsmen and others who had been involved in the shale oil industry and knew it so thoroughly. A man like Petrie, whose son is in Brisbane now, who has a wealth of knowledge about this matter. And this is the great tragedy, that we haven't done the obvious thing. A tunnel through the mountains from Newnes, it's 7 miles walk on a track up, windy track round through the mountains. And about 2 to 3 miles direct, drilling, tunnelling, would have provided the adequate link. Not great spending of great money. But Glen Davis, to the entrepreneurs, to G.F. Davis, offered the opportunity of getting land, selling land, subdividing land, business sites and so on. And then being not wisely advised, but unwisely advised on certain aspects of production. And when you think of the folly of water coming all the way from Oberon on the western side of the range right down to Glen Davis, where there's a stream there known as running stream that flows into the Capertee River, which constantly flows with beautiful, clear water. It was most unwise. They even bought coal out here from the Lithgow district and took it down to Glen Davis. While there's an excellent measure, a, a seam of coal at Glen Davis, as there is in Wolgan—where they had ample supplies of coals and made coke for the iron and steel industry here at Lithgow. All of this shows just what would be trail of national interest, the closure and the destruction of the shale oil industry ah was and is to this country. And although I protest at the time, I've often protested since and I've got ah quite much, quite a lot of information about it all. I'm just appalled the, how people will accept ah the decisions of government on issues where there should be strong outbursts of public protest and condemnation. I'm happy to say though, ah that when I saw a film, Gallipoli, there was also a film about Glen Davis. And this I viewed in Melbourne, happened to be in Melbourne at the time. And to my everlasting happiness, when the people in Melbourne Theatre saw the film of Glen Davis, they clapped and cheered as if this m-, our own little place. It gave me a feeling: well, it's not so bad after all. That people in Australia do care and they have some sense—they mightn't know much about Glen Davis, the shale oil industry or what's happening. But they, when they saw the film, ah a pretty frank ah portrayal, they were there to cheer and to clap and say: 'Well done.' Andrew Moore: This is also a period when Lang's readmitted to the party and there's reconciliation in there, in the period immediately before your entry into federal parliament. Did you have any part to play in that? At time 00:52:11 Summary: His role in Jack Lang's reinstatement into the ALP, and the importance of balanced historical records. Keywords: 'The Sydney Sun', Paul John Keating, ALP Conference Andrew Moore: This is also a period when Lang's readmitted to the party and there's reconciliation in there, in the period immediately before your entry into federal parliament. Did you have any part to play in that? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I did, and, and it was after I was e-, elected to parliament, a most interesting thing, ah it gave me a lot of pleasure because I defended Jack Lang against expulsion and ah I got quite a deal of notice and the Sydney Sun had a quite a, a, a blown up ah, ah print of me speaking for Mr Lang and against his expulsion. Where I was pointing to people on the platform, officials of a party when I said: 'Well, if Mr Lang is guilty of the charges you'll level against him, so are you all on the platform because not one of you hesitated to say: "Lang is right."' And one of the officials there had Lang and his own son's name. He, he, he, he'd, he'd called his son Lang as a part of a—John Thomas Lang Wright. Ah so this is the sort of thing that happened at the time. But I did defend Lang, and as you say, I found for his readmission and it was in-, interesting conference because in all conferences, there's rivalries and factions and arguments and difficulties and ah it's not always easy to get people to reconcile themselves with the past. And one of the sad things about history, they don't like the history of the truth: they'd like to write it the way they would want it. And unfortunately, about history in the main, is the that the people who win the battles, write the history and the people who lose the battles, lose the history. They don't get their point of view. And for that reason, I'm indebted to you, Andrew, and to the National Library and all concerned, for the opportunity of saying a few things on tape ah about these matters. But Paul Keating—who's now treasurer—and then ah, ah devotee and keen admirer of Jack Lang—a young man who used to call on Lang frequently, I understand. He told me that he, he would like to move for his, his readmission, what did I think about it? And I said: 'Oh, I'd be delighted. I think it's a great idea.' And we, after talking about it, well, I said: 'The best thing to do, you, you move his admission and ah, and I'll second it.' And at the Labor Party conference, Keating got a pretty good hearing but ah without boasting—and I'm not boasting, I'm telling the truth—I got an amazingly good hearing. And it was on a theme I knew so well because it revived to me the fighting days of the '30 when there was one premier, at least in New South Wales, who was prepared to take the opposite view to authority, to the great finance houses, the shipping monopolies. The great brokers and others who were manipulating and controlling our country then, and to a large extent, to this present time. And I thought: here, this is something worthwhile. So I retraced some of Lang's dealings, his widows' pensions when others were cutting them. His child endowment pension, his workers' compensation where he legislated to make compensation payment to workers to and from work. Previously, it was only paid whilst they were at work. And how he introduced a moratorium, [indecipherable]. person wouldn't lose their motorcar, their home or, or their little business. An old, financed house could ah foreclose. And I went through these things and, and as someone said to me the other day, I forget, one of our members, he said: 'You're one of the lucky ones.' I said: 'What do you mean?' He said: 'You, one time, you've got a standing ovation.' I said: 'What are you talking about?' He said: 'When you second the motion for Lang's readmission.' And I also think of Beamer, an English boy from Liverpool … ah no, Manchester, I think, but he, one of the English counties … a-, and ah he, he was the conference from the Penrith area. And he was so overjoyed. He said: 'You were wonderful.' He said: 'It made the hairs on my neck stand up straight.' He said: 'It did a lot for me.' At time 00:55:35 Summary: More about the '50s: how his speech to reinstate Lang was very well regarded. Keywords: Manchester, Penrith, Liverpool, Joe Luchetti, Gold Coast, Queensland (Qld) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And I went through these things and, and as someone said to me the other day, I forget, one of our members, he said: 'You're one of the lucky ones.' I said: 'What do you mean?' He said: 'You, one time, you've got a standing ovation.' I said: 'What are you talking about?' He said: 'When you second the motion for Lang's readmission.' And I also think of Beamer, an English boy from Liverpool … ah no, Manchester, I think, but he, one of the English counties … a-, and ah he, he was the conference from the Penrith area. And he was so overjoyed. He said: 'You were wonderful.' He said: 'It made the hairs on my neck stand up straight.' He said: 'It did a lot for me.' And one of the extraordinary things was that happened after I made my speech, ah a woman from the metropolitan area, out in the Newtown area, where they were having trouble with the authority of the party, and knew my brother, Joe, quite well, who was supporting her point of view and a radical. And perhaps might be described a left-wing attitude. She come up to me, she said: 'That was very good.' She said: 'You made a wonderful speech.' But why don't you come out and make a speech like that for Joe'—that was my brother who's now off the Gold Coast. And I said: 'Well, I'll have to see what I can do about that but,' I said, 'we've won one battle here.' And ah, and as it worked out, there was not one vote against Lang's readmission. Andrew Moore: What dates, though, are we talking about? I seem to have got it chronologically … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, this, this jumped right into the fifties. This has jumped into the fifties. Andrew Moore: And what was happening with the Hughes-Evans Party and … At time 00:57:29 Summary: Comments about State Labor Party (Hughes-Evans), including Chifley's stand against it. Keywords: State Labor Party (Hughes-Evans), FEDFA* (union), 'Hands off Russia', Clerk's Union, Communist Party of Australia (CPA), Patrick John Kennelly (Vic), Jack Ferguson Andrew Moore: And what was happening with the Hughes-Evans Party and … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh well, that was interesting because there's another thing, we were talking about Mr Chifley and tags and attitudes and things. Mr Chifley, ah had taken a stand against the Hughes-Evans. And you might have saw some minutes there where, ah about the Hughes-Evans ah, ah Party. Ah w-, they were controlling the Labor Party. Hughes, I think, was an official of the clerks union and I forget what e-, I think he might have been F-e-d-f-a, Evans, but I'm not sure. But Evans, Hughes-Evans, they'd carried a motion ah along the lines, something of hands off Russia. And ah some people in writing up the minutes had, had forgot to record it, and there'd been a debate and a discussion on that. And of course, those who were, wanted the hands off of Russia motion, they insisted it me ah published. Well, ah Mr Chifley was able to talk to the top brass of the federal executor of the party, and they intervened and they would have included Pat Kennelly from Victoria ah and it may have also been ah Jackie Ferguson, from New South Wales. But anyhow, they got enough strength to have new-, ah, ah New South Wales party ah reconstructed in a fairly quiet way. But got away with the dismissal of Hughes and Evans executive. And ah that was quite a, a, a blow up. And these are the things that happened that you don't get a true picture because the story of Ben Chifley, he, he was a man, you know, whilst he did that against Hughes-Evans, he had the greatest ah, ah relationship and friendship, ah who was the big trade union boy from the waterfront or the seamen? Um he was at Glen Davis, I met him at Glen Davis, too. He was a pipe-smoking man. Ah, a, a very left trade unionist and probably a member of the Communist Party, I'm not sure. But anyhow, Chif was a close friend of his and when Chif made his s-, return in 1930s, late 1938, he and the left-wing boys and the rump of the old federal party that was left, supporting him. And without them, he couldn't have won. But interestingly, I might say this now, he wouldn't have won that selection that time had it not been for the AWU vote at Portland. Um Essel, Burgess or Cess Burgess, as we knew him, he was the AW rep down there. At time 00:59:35 Summary: Various comments about Chifley, including some political associations, how he won the '38 selection, how he was a good treasurer, and areas of failure. Keywords: Australian Workers' Union (AWU), Portland, Cecil Burgess*, Edgar Dring*, Electorate of Ashburnham, Snowy Mountains Project, Bell Bay Aluminium Project, Mr Rickard, Sir Robert Gordon Menzies, Bob Yates* A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: But anyhow, Chif was a close friend of his and when Chif made his s-, return in 1930s, late 1938, he and the left-wing boys and the rump of the old federal party that was left, supporting him. And without them, he couldn't have won. But interestingly, I might say this now, he wouldn't have won that selection that time had it not been for the AWU vote at Portland. Um Essel, Burgess or Cess Burgess, as we knew him, he was the AW rep down there. He'd been a great supporter of mine but he decided to throw in his lot and support Ben Chifley. And as the AWU, they had a vote on the job, that crucial vote. Edgar Dring, a schoolteacher, woodwork teacher, ah who ah was the member for Ashburnham, who won the seat of Ashburnham. Ah and then later came and got the Auburn seat that Lang had held. Ah he, he sh-, he should have won. He was expected to have won. But I had no regrets about Ben Chifley coming back because I felt this among other things. Well, our clash caused his defeat in '31 and as it worked out in the main, Chifley's great work was in those closing post-war period. He was a good trea-, keen treasurer, he looked after the nation's finances, he looked after his own, he was rather careful in the handling of money and ah, all in all, he, he, he proved to be a very great success ah as a treasurer. But his work in Bell Bay Aluminium project, the Snowy Mountains Project and matters of that description. And where he failed and where he got a roasting here from our, our local organisation—which was a very strong one—vigorous, ah they were not backwards in calling a spade a spade. Ah after he was suffered ah, ah the defeat, ah Rickard, a shop assistant's rep here who was quite a keen man, he ah really ticked Mr Chifley off and told him that, you know, 'Ben, you haven't done the right thing. You've let us down. Ah what have you done? You, you won't make petrol available to us, you say there's none available, but Menzies can get all the petrol he wants. You won't give endowment for the first child, you're not short of money for other things. Why can't you do these? Why do you want to throw the government away?' And he was really [indecipherable]. In those days, too, ah Chifley had to contend with the a very strong left-wing group in the ah, in, in the ah, in the, in the, in the ALP here with the Macquarie. In one meeting at Katoomba, Bob Yates, of the ah Arms, Explosives, Ammunitions, later the— Event: Interview Paused At time 01:02:34 Summary: End of session Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:00 Summary: AS Luchetti Interviewed by Andrew Moore. Tape Four. Keywords: AS Luchetti (Tony), Andrew Moore, Lithgow, Australian Labor Party (ALP) Andrew Moore: This is the fourth tape of an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti by Andrew Moore conducted by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the Parliament's Bicentenary Publications Project. This interview is taking place today, 11 August 1983. Mr Luchetti, you were talking about Ben Chifley's problems with left-wing elements in the ALP. At time 00:00:01 Summary: Chifley's problems with the left wing of the ALP, including what happened at a meeting in Katoomba (1949). Keywords: Joseph Benedict (Ben) Chifley, Katoomba, Macquarie ALP Assembly, Robert (Bob) Yates, Federated Ironworkers' Association of Australia (FIA) Andrew Moore: This is the fourth tape of an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti by Andrew Moore conducted by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the Parliament's Bicentenary Publications Project. This interview is taking place today, 11 August 1983. Mr Luchetti, you were talking about Ben Chifley's problems with left-wing elements in the ALP. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, ah oh, Ben had his problems but he had ah an amiable, disarming style. And I recall one occasion at Katoomba, the Macquarie ALP Assembly Meeting, he was getting rather a torrid time. Before he got to the meeting, there was a demonstration in the street, it was after the coal m-, strike of ah, of 1939. Andrew Moore: Forty-nine. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Forty-nine strike, yes. And ah he was getting a pretty rough time of it and one of those who led the protests and complaints was Bob Yates from the Ironworkers' Union. And ah Chifley, in a very calm and friendly sort of style, ah met all the objections as well as he was able and ah disregarded many of the protests. And as the meeting broke up for lunch, Chifley got up and he said: 'Oh Bob, just a member,' he said, 'oh, you know that matter you asked me to attend to for your mother, well, I've got that fixed up for all right, she'll be all right.' Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And this ah unsmiling but warm, affectionate sort of attention to duty from Chifley to Bob, who was criticising him, was one of the most disarming things that could have happened to Bob Yates, to have had Chifley making this kindly reference to what he was doing for the mother of Bob Yates. So that was one of the thing that Chifley was really a past master. He was good at talking to people in such circumstances as that. Andrew Moore: Apart from the obviously, that is Mr Chifley's death, what were the circumstances that led up to your um involvement in parliament in 1951? At time 00:02:08 Summary: Background to his parliamentary involvement in '51, including his role at the Lithgow Council, and Chifley's death in '51. Keywords: Lithgow Municipal Council, Bathurst Branch ALP, Universty of Sydney, WZ Black, Charles Anderson, Workmen's Club Andrew Moore: Apart from the obviously, that is Mr Chifley's death, what were the circumstances that led up to your um involvement in parliament in 1951? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I was right, I was actually a frontrunner among local people having worked in the local council, ah busily engaged in the needs of the people, trying to get better local government and so on as I had started a summer school for aldermen, better aldermen, better officers, Sydney University and so on. And the people, generally, ah regarded me as ah a frontrunner because of my previous a-, activities. And when Ben died on the, Wednesday 13 June 1951, there was quite a, a collapse among people wondering what to be done. And it seemed obvious to me at the time that the federal, the state executive of the party—not the federal, but the state executor of the party—intended to have an executive selection. And that was triggered off to some extent by a vote up at Bathurst, at a snap meeting of the Bathurst ALP and a woman up there who was very much on side with the official point of view, had moved a motion that we ask the state executive to make a selection. And there was only ten at the meeting and that was carried by eight votes to two. They didn't represent the Bathurst point of view but ah that night there was only 10 there ah after Ben had died. And ah that caused quite a, a stir among other branches of the party, and here in Lithgow, a vote was taken about what they should do and by 55 votes to nil, they demanded of the federal executive that there should be a plebiscite, there should be a pre-selection ballot conducted by the membership of the party. And the Lithgow point of view gathered strength rather rapidly and ah the pressure was so great that the federal party, the state party had to take notice of the viewpoint of the local people. And then the executive sent ah Charlie Anderson—either assistant secretary or secretary—to come to Lithgow to sound out the people to see what the situation was. And after he moved around among the people, he told them that he didn't think I could win this election: that he thought Mr Black was an alderman of the council, a very popular local man who was the secretary manager of the Workmen's Club and mayor of Lithgow at the time. An ideal candidate: that he would undoubtedly win this election. So ah with that assurance that I couldn't win as I was unwanted and I, it's wise all this to know just how your, your credit is and ah my credit was not too high down at head office of the ALP. Ah they decided to have a preselection ballot and then to make it difficult should I ah persist in being a candidate, the executive of the party had their people moving around among the ah, ah branches, encouraging as many candidates as possible to nominate. They went around inviting all types of persons to become candidate for selection, telling them it's their glo-, golden opportunity. Ben had died leaving the coast open, there was an opportunity for someone to come in, ah the right type of person to represent the Labor Party and to take over the leadership where Ben had left off. And ah i-, when this took place, we had the extraordinary circumstance, ah the people there did encourage some nine or 10 candidates to nominate. And those who nominated included Bill Black, W.Z. Black, ah Edwards from Enfield in Sydney, ah Greave from Glen Davis. Bailey, a solicitor for Bathurst. Smith, ah a businessman from Bathurst. Laten, the editor of The Lithgow Mercury. Ah Duncan, AAU official here. And Ernie Cole, AFULE from Bathurst. At time 00:05:40 Summary: More about the strategies used to keep votes away from him in the '51 preselection, and how he won by a clear margin in the ballot. Keywords: Edwards, , Enfield, Sydney, 'Lithgow Mercury', Mr Grieve (Glen Davis), Mr Bailey (Bathurst), Mr Leighton, Ernie Cole (AFULE), Frank Slaven, Fred McGrath, Mr Dickson, 'The Barrier', William Bennett, Mr Nicholls, Charles Barlow, Gregory House Lithgow A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ben had died leaving the coast open, there was an opportunity for someone to come in, ah the right type of person to represent the Labor Party and to take over the leadership where Ben had left off. And ah i-, when this took place, we had the extraordinary circumstance, ah the people there did encourage some nine or 10 candidates to nominate. And those who nominated included Bill Black, W.Z. Black, ah Edwards from Enfield in Sydney, ah Greave from Glen Davis. Bailey, a solicitor for Bathurst. Smith, ah a businessman from Bathurst. Laten, the editor of The Lithgow Mercury. Ah Duncan, AAU official here. And Ernie Cole, AFULE from Bathurst. Andrew Moore: Do you think this was a deliberate strategy … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh, I'm sure. Yes, I'm quite sure and I know from people who were invited to be candidates, such as ah, ah Frank Slaven and ah various other ones, Fred McGrath. Ah, ah quite good types who'd been ve-, extremely active. They, too, had been invited to nominate, as others down here. And it was the ploy that if they could get a lot to take votes away from anything that I was likely to get—the candidate favoured by the party was Mr Black, Billy Black, who was a friend of mine, ah quite a good chap, and ah that it would help him. And anyhow, the ballot took place and the party then sat Mr Dixon, a former ah barrier man, I think he was on the paper up there, Barry industrial paper. He come up to Lithgow just to supervise this—he was the state returning officer—to see that we didn't step out of line. Or if I did, that I'd be disqualified. And I realised that, and I certainly advised all my supporters to exercise the greatest care. And the selection ballot was held and ah I polled 268 votes; Bill Black: 94; ah Mr Bennet, Bill Bennet, a very fine fellow from Portland: 52; Edwards Enfield: 15; Greave from Glen Davis: 14; Bailey of Bathurst: 11; Smith from Bathurst: 10; Laten, Lithgow editor: 5; Duncan, AUU: 5; and Ernie Cole, Bathurst, AFULE: 5. So I [indecipherable]. Andrew Moore: [indecipherable]. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I had a very clear cut margin and there was only one question raised and that was a vote being given to a sick man at Cullen Bullen, a supporter of Billy Blacks—ah a man named, Nichols. And ah the man who came to speak to me today, ah Mr Glue, was the scrutineer for Billy Black, and he ah s-, thought that it was only fair that everybody had a vote bar Mr Nichols, and as Mr Nichols was home in bed ill, he ought to be given the opportunity to vote. So they took the ballot box around to allow him to have a vote, which was strictly incorrect: it should not have been done, and … Andrew Moore: Didn't make any difference. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: It made no difference. A protest had been made and withdrawn, and at the meeting, a most successful attitude, most friendly attitude, Bennett from Portland got up and walked over and shook hands and wished me well. Charlie, Barlow, who lives in these, at the geriatric place up here, ah Gregory House, ah moved the adoption of the Returning Officers Report. I received the congratulations of Black and Edwards and Duncan and they decided to establish their campaign committee and go straight ahead with the business. Andrew Moore: Stepping into Ben Chifley's shoes, then, did you know, think it was a sure thing that you would win the forthcoming by-election or … At time 00:09:30 Summary: The challenges of taking over from Chifley (Division of Macquarie). Keywords: JT Lang, the Lang Plan, 'the light on the hill', Gus Kelly Andrew Moore: Stepping into Ben Chifley's shoes, then, did you know, think it was a sure thing that you would win the forthcoming by-election or … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, it was not sure. In politics, you can't afford to ah think that you're sure. And I realised that because of men and I, and, and I had, had conflicted, we'd been opposed to one another on critical issues in the Depression period. There was a possibility that situation could be exploited by our opponents, and we said: 'Well, Tony Luchetti's not the right person to try to take Ben Chifley's position, because he opposed Ben Chifley. And his supporter said nasty things about Ben Chifley and so on.' And what had happened was that a circular had been ah published near the end of the campaign ah saying that I—ah no, this was in the next campaign—saying that I'd opposed Ben and so on. But it was so … ill-founded, ah the facts weren't straight, that it helped to destroy itself. Andrew Moore: Having such an illustrious forebear ah as Ben Chifley must have been a bit daunting. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I-, well, it was. To me, personally, I'd ah, may I say, perhaps, I, I hope it wasn't um, ah an overconfident attitude, but I, I had a tremendous respect for Ben but I had a great confidence that I could meet the situation. And a thing that I, I've often gone through in my mind was a simple thing and it's beside the point, they often quote Bill, ah Ben Chifley as the light on the hill statement. Now, Ben got that from me originally, you know, because in our first clash in '31, I said: 'The Lang Plan stands as a beacon to lead men on to the path that they should travel for better times … ' et cetera, et cetera. And that theme, that light on the hill was accepted by Ben and Ben started to use it, just as … Andrew Moore: Very evocative. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Just as Gus Kelly, in another way at Bathurst, who was the state member for Bathurst, and although had to be on my side but a supporter of Ben's. Deep underneath he, he was extremely close to Ben. Ah Gus used to ah smoke a lot of pipes to show that he was like Ben Chifley and just as Ben Chifley smoked a pipe, so did Gus Kelly. And Gus w-, four or five pipes in his pocket. And he'd be fumbling these and giving an exhibition of all his pipes. Innocently but making sure people saw him with all his pipes. And old Ben didn't bother about that: he, he was content to smoke one and to be [indecipherable]. with one pipe. But ah, ah what you say is true: it was a, ah it was ah something that I had to really take note of. That I was following a man who had been extremely successful. A man who'd fought his way through ah into parliament '28, who ah had, had made the grade, had become the minister of defence, was liked, and I would add that I haven't met one public servant. I, I don't know that I've met a journalist who, who ever said one unkind thing of Ben Chifley. Yeah, that disarming smile. He was a, had a kindly disposition and it was revealed when a group of women came to interview him at Canberra and ah, ah they thought: this man, this socialist man, this terrible man, Chifley, what sort of reception will we get? And when they came along, he said: 'Oh,' he said, 'you must be tired and weary, you've come a long way, and well, I think you should first have a cup of tea before I bother you about telling me what this is all about.' So he suggested that they have a cup of tea. And after they had a cup of tea, they hardly knew what they were in Canberra to talk about, and so it was: he was most disarming in that sort of way. He had a very pleasant face and he could get away with quite a lot of things. Andrew Moore: In the thirties, you were noted for your association with Lang Labor, but I've noted in your speeches that Lang doesn't appear as, as, ah as an influence and the person that you refer to most commonly is, in fact, Chifley. At time 00:13:35 Summary: How to win the seat of Macquarie he had to stress his association with Chifley rather than Lang Labor. Keywords: Canberra, Lang Labor, HV Evatt Andrew Moore: In the thirties, you were noted for your association with Lang Labor, but I've noted in your speeches that Lang doesn't appear as, as, ah as an influence and the person that you refer to most commonly is, in fact, Chifley. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: That, that was done, it was d-, done very deliberately. Ah Doctor Evatt, who was the campaign director and leader of the Labor Party at the time, had put forward a campaign that Luchetti stands where Chifley stood. Well, I certainly was standing where Chifley stood—he was the former member for Macquarie, and I hoped to be the member for Macquarie. And quite honestly, I realised that if I were to become the member for Macquarie, I would require to fit into the Chifley attitude, the Chifley scheme of things in the electorate of Macquarie, or it would certain damage my election prospects. And when I was elected to parliament, well, I had to pay a tribute to the man who held the seat before me, Joseph Benedict Chifley, and quite frankly, the man, I'd say kind thing, I think I said among other things he was a man of peace—which was true, he was not a warmonger of any kind at all. And ah all of those things, I, I was on pretty sound ground. Ah I'd have been on pretty dangerous grounds if I'd have gone any way, other way, despite the fact, no, I still had the greatest admiration for Lang—as I've expressed myself today. That is true. Andrew Moore: So on 4 October 1951, you deliver your maiden speech. How did you feel? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, an interesting thing about that, I had tremendous confidence because I'd been lots of scraps. And one of the greatest and challenging things that I'd experienced was in my campaign in '31. I, I went to ah Richmond on the Hawksbury to have a meeting. A conservative place and ah orange groves and vegetable growing and so on. Ah when I got to ah Richmond, I had ah with me ah Matthews—who'd been a candidate for selection, he'd been a council of the Blue Mountains Council, and I looked for some supporters and I knew one chap, a Scotsman down there, a chap with a Scot's name, a-, a-, a-, and ah I called on him. Ah 'Yes, I'm with ya, I'm with you all the way.' I said: 'What about being chairman?' 'Oh no,' he said, 'I've had no experience at chairman.' 'Well,' I said, 'c-, have you got a big box that I can stand on?' Yes, he had a box. At time 00:15:18 Summary: How his campaign in '31 gave him confidence for his maiden speech in parliament in '51. Keywords: Richmond, Hawkesbury River, Blue Mountains, Mr Matthews, Liberal Party of Australia, Mr Lawson, Mr Cramer* (Minister for Army), Australian Broadcasting Commission (ABC, Australian Broadcasting Corporation) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, an interesting thing about that, I had tremendous confidence because I'd been lots of scraps. And one of the greatest and challenging things that I'd experienced was in my campaign in '31. I, I went to ah Richmond on the Hawksbury to have a meeting. A conservative place and ah orange groves and vegetable growing and so on. Ah when I got to ah Richmond, I had ah with me ah Matthews—who'd been a candidate for selection, he'd been a council of the Blue Mountains Council, and I looked for some supporters and I knew one chap, a Scotsman down there, a chap with a Scot's name, a-, a-, a-, and ah I called on him. Ah 'Yes, I'm with ya, I'm with you all the way.' I said: 'What about being chairman?' 'Oh no,' he said, 'I've had no experience at chairman.' 'Well,' I said, 'c-, have you got a big box that I can stand on?' Yes, he had a box. So we borrowed a box and I asked Mr Matthews, ah councillor Matthews, to be my chairman. He said: 'Yes.' 'Well,' I said, 'make a, a little speech because,' I said, 'I want you to take some time, get the people to come on to where I'm speaking. And if we do that, ah well, it will attract attention and I'll be able to get a meeting.' Matthews got up and said: 'Ladies and gentlemen, I wish to introduce Tony Luchetti, the Labor candidate for Macquarie, to step down.' And there was Lawson, the Liberal candidate, on a great big lorry with a union jack, with ah decanters and water jugs and glasses, and all the trappings with a, a, a civic leaders. Chifley's on a … Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: a lorry not far away. Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: When I started up, the crowd left them and came to me. And this was a real test: this was really putting the acid test right on me. And it was one of the first meetings I had. So when I had to make my maiden speech, I thought: 'Well, I've had a, a few ah tough jobs but if I've got my thoughts clear in my head of what I want to say, that'll be all right.' And Cramer, who later was minister for army, came up to me, he said: 'Are you nervous?' I said: 'No.' 'Oh,' he said, 'don't s-, tell me that.' I said: 'No, I'm not nervous, but I'm a bit tense.' He said: 'Well, it's the same thing.' I said: 'No, I'm not nervous anyhow.' I made my speech and got away with it and fortunately we're given publicity to the fact that it'd be broadcast—it was on the ABC—broadcast of parliament. It was well received throughout the electorate and I was pretty well launched! Because I said a few things that pleased local people—I said a kind work of Chifley, I talked about Glen Davis. I might have mentioned something of decentralisation of industry or something—I don't know how. Ah but … Andrew Moore: Well, before you go on then, perhaps we can talk about the maiden speech 'cause I think that would be appropriate moment. 'Cause ah obviously, it came in the wake of that notorious budget and profit by [indecipherable]. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh yeah! At time 00:18:10 Summary: Andrew reads from Tony's maiden speech, and Tony affirms that his views haven't changed. Keywords: Miner, education, railway worker, 'The Mercury' (Lithgow) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh yeah! Andrew Moore: which you described as an amazing document and as an unwarranted burden upon ordinary people. You did, of course, pay a tribute to Ben Chifley and ah some of the themes, I think, are very interesting that you expressed. I just wonder if I could read them to you and see what you, you think of them now. You said: 'I come to express the theme of Labor, which had its origin in the struggle for a fair deal and for fair play in this country. I represent miners who are maligned, condemned and vilified by people who should know better. To these people, we are indebted for our heat and light and for other good things. In our education system, instead of paying tribute to [indecipherable]. people are encouraged to believe the slogan of the independent'—ah I presume that means industrial—'workers of the world that only fools and horses work hard. We should reward [indecipherable]. miners and railway workers … ' Um and you also talk about the aspirations of the ALP. That: 'The honourable winners on this side of the chamber represent the mass of the people, the people who toil and produce the wealth of the country, whilst on the whims of the government represent vested financial institutions.' It seems to me that's a very appropriate ah sentiments to be expressing. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I wholeheartedly ah endorse them today. Andrew Moore: That's what I wonder about a maiden speech, do you, when you say these things, ah so many years later is it a question of modifying your thoughts or … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: No, the extraordinary thing: no. And an astonishing thing. A lot of people have said to me: 'But you're just the same as you were 50 years ago the, in The Mercury, the local paper have been reprinted statements I made in various places to the unemployed and to public meetings to the, at the hospital and various places. And I've been on the same sort of thing. As far as I'm concerned, those basic truths don't alter. The colour of the day, the weather changes, but the, the, the truth, the facts of life remain. They do not change. Andrew Moore: So when you became a parliamentarian, did you make a conscious decision to be, ah to have an orientation towards parish pump issues or national concerns? How do you balance the issues to do with a local electorate or, in the more general issues? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I took a pretty broad attitude toward it all. I'd made up my mind that I would not lose a seat by neglect of people's interests, that I would regularly visit areas throughout the place and that I would not ah dodge any major issue that might come up, come up. I'd meet the needs of the people wherever they might be—as I mentioned about Glen Davis, I, one of the first issues I had to espouse, I had to speak on, I had to defend the rights of the people down there. I had to hold their battle for an industry and for their economic survival. At time 00:20:23 Summary: How his focus was on both local and general issues as a parliamentarian, with many examples. Keywords: Rockley, Father Casey*, Communist Party of Australia (CPA), Sir Robert Gordon Menzies, Northern Territory (NT), Sir Paul Hasluck, Aboriginal Australian, Edward Gough Whitlam, Ashford, Inverell A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I took a pretty broad attitude toward it all. I'd made up my mind that I would not lose a seat by neglect of people's interests, that I would regularly visit areas throughout the place and that I would not ah dodge any major issue that might come up, come up. I'd meet the needs of the people wherever they might be—as I mentioned about Glen Davis, I, one of the first issues I had to espouse, I had to speak on, I had to defend the rights of the people down there. I had to hold their battle for an industry and for their economic survival. And another thing I had to take on very early was the anti-com dissolution and that referendum. And one of the first things I had— Andrew Moore: You were part in that's very interesting, yes. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah, well, one of the first things I did after being elected, was to go right round the election, electorate and speak against that, that, that referendum. Andrew Moore: It's only a matter of months, isn't it? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, it was—and it was an extraordinary thing. I, one of the first meetings as, around in the bush, I was, I was not just picking out a few industrial areas, went round to all the areas. And at Rockley, there was a, a Father Casey, I think it was there … oh no, it wasn't Ca-, oh, Casey, it doesn't matter—but there was a, a priest came to the meeting. And I put the thing on the line and he was a hundred per cent with me! I said: 'No, this is utterly wrong. If we were to outlaw one political party, next thing some other political party and so on.' And I took a very strong attitude in that. Reflecting on it over the ah subsequent years, at times I wonder how dinkum Menzies was. Doctor Evatt put up a very good campaign against ah, ah the referendum, a wonderful campaign—he put up a great fight ah and worked hard on it. But at times I wondered whether Menzies was all out. Whether he would have been disappointed if he had won, because if he'd ah won, he still wouldn't have had so much of a communist can to kick about. And ah how he would have felt being denied that—I'm not so sure. I, I've wondered since. But on other issues, while I was going round looking after Glen Davis or some other issue around here or the needs of a person for a pension, I set out on a campaign of Australia. I was interested because of Glen Davis and Newnes and oil, of mineral and energy. I'd become active in that. And ah I was active on behalf, I was active on behalf of, I was active on behalf of, of, of the Aboriginals. I knew some, I knew, I ah was elected minister, an interesting thing, we, ah delegation was appointed to go into the Northern Territory. Hasluck was minister for territories, later governor general and so on, and he had a delegation to go round the Northern Territory. And we had to appoint three from our party, two from the reps and one from the senate. And ah I defeated Gough Whitlam in the ballot as one of the delegates to go to the Northern Territory and I had a good look round there and it just whetted my attitude, appetite because my mother had that broad idea of Australia. My father did, too. Once he went right up to Ashford, out from Inverell to look at the coal up there. He, he'd been right into Queensland on another occasion to see something. Ah we, we had that attitude of Australia. And frankly, I was not a small stater. In a broad sense, I was a unificationist—I believed that if we were going to ever do anything fundamental in his country, we needed a strong national government. We could have good, centralisation through regional bodies, bigger local government areas with more extensive powers which would take those residual powers from the states, left over from the Commonwealth. But I had this strong national feeling. And ah these were the sort of things I started into and I followed that up later because ah we formed a mining committee of which I was chairman—which has just folded up now, just got a cheque to pay to the parliamentary party. Jones of Newcastle, Griffiths of Newcastle, ah … Carnie, who was then member for the south coast ah after a while—he wasn't the first, Davies was the member when I got in. And ah, ah with others. A member for Kalgoorlie, Jock Nelson, from the Northern Territory; Ronnie Davies from Tasmania. We formed a miners com-, mining committee, put in our money, visited the minefields, took evidence, heard the views of miners, of mine owners, had it recorded and come up with a national energy policy and so on. At time 00:23:50 Summary: How in a broad sense he was a unificationist, and his role on the ALP mining committee. Keywords: Central government, Mining Committee, Mr Jones (Newcastle), Mr Griffiths (Newcastle), Mr Carney (South Coast NSW), Kalgoorlie, Jock Nelson, Ron Davies (Tasmania), John McEwen A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Jones of Newcastle, Griffiths of Newcastle, ah … Carnie, who was then member for the south coast ah after a while—he wasn't the first, Davies was the member when I got in. And ah, ah with others. A member for Kalgoorlie, Jock Nelson, from the Northern Territory; Ronnie Davies from Tasmania. We formed a miners com-, mining committee, put in our money, visited the minefields, took evidence, heard the views of miners, of mine owners, had it recorded and come up with a national energy policy and so on. And we had the printing committee of party, parliament proven and then McEwan, I think it was, who had it knocked out. Ah, ah wasn't a parliamentary committee in the full sense, it was just a Labor Party committee. They wouldn't print it. And this was one of the broad things I was interested in. Andrew Moore: Within the general area of national development, some things interest me in particular and um obviously in your case—ah as a member for an area that has something substantial, such as the Lithgow Small Arms Factory—defence is a, is a, a prominent concern. But I'm just ah interested in your attitude, say, to the development of uranium in the 1950s, and I wonder whether or not you might have changed your attitude in that. Because with in the general area of, of ah uranium and the mining thereof, your attitude towards Rum Jungle would be to considered distinctly unfashionable now, and would you have modified that since? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, it was Rum Jungle at the time. I was an enthusiast. I thought: 'Well, here's something extraordinary. This is something wonderful and good—it's a new form of energy, and ah it will create employment. It will help to develop the country.' And I was particularly pleased, I went a bachelor ah to Rum Jungle a couple of times to look over that. And in subsequent years—as the ah, as my position in the cabinet, ah the sub-committee of, of shadow ministry was one of mineral energy, power and all the rest of it—I, I toured the world, ah I, well, I didn't tour the world ex-, explicitly for that but I toured the world because I was going to a, a world conference. But I took the opportunity of doing a few things, one to go into Italy and to look over the EI, ENI show—which was the national set up for power, energy, distribution of oil, natural gas and selling it to people, the whole blooming lot. At time 00:25:29 Summary: National development, his attitude to uranium in the '50s, and whether his opinions have changed. Keywords: Lithgow Small Arms Factory, uranium, Rum Jungle, Batchelor, Italy, ENI*, Holland, Sittard, English Channel, nuclear reactor, Dungeness, Limburg, Japan A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, it was Rum Jungle at the time. I was an enthusiast. I thought: 'Well, here's something extraordinary. This is something wonderful and good—it's a new form of energy, and ah it will create employment. It will help to develop the country.' And I was particularly pleased, I went a bachelor ah to Rum Jungle a couple of times to look over that. And in subsequent years—as the ah, as my position in the cabinet, ah the sub-committee of, of shadow ministry was one of mineral energy, power and all the rest of it—I, I toured the world, ah I, well, I didn't tour the world ex-, explicitly for that but I toured the world because I was going to a, a world conference. But I took the opportunity of doing a few things, one to go into Italy and to look over the EI, ENI show—which was the national set up for power, energy, distribution of oil, natural gas and selling it to people, the whole blooming lot. I went from there, after I've been well briefed there and going to Milan to their headquarters, and checking out things very thoroughly. I went into Holland and I went ah to ah Sittard ah in Limburg, a region of Holland, where I looked over their great project there. Where they'd fused out of mining, state mines, ah at Sittard in the, in Limburg, and into a great national energy project in which the state, the government controlled everything. And, and from there, this comes to the uranium point of view, when I went into the United Kingdom, went to Dungeness—their nuclear reactor on the English Channel—and looked over that and was briefed on that. And quite frankly, I, I was quite enthusiastic. Ah today, I don't know that I'm so enthusiastic about it. Ah I don't know what we will do when other p-, people use a nuclear power, what we should be doing. But ah at that time, I was very much enthusiastic about it all. Andrew Moore: I've noticed a bit of change, though, in your attitude towards the threat of, ah of atomic warfare in that period. That um, at least in terms of civil defence and those sorts of things—which you were concerned about in the 19-, in the early 1950s. Talking about the necessary precaution where, for something inevitable—which is a fairly logical thing to do in view of the statements that Menzies had made about war within three years. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. Andrew Moore: Ah but in the mid-1950s, you had a job, adopted a more broadly pacifist approach. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, ah today, I think there, there are problems, tremendous problems—ah most ah worrying problems ah of what, what can happen. And ah I think these will persist irrespective of what we do because we've got neighbours and people in the world who are developing their nuclear ah capacities ah to do most ah terrible things. Ah and I think this will continue irrespective of what we do. I don't know … and now, take a country, Indonesia, our neighbour. I, I'm, I'm not too sure that Indonesia will be restrained very much. If it comes to world ah situation again, whether the Japanese would, would be restrained. I, I, I'm, I'm very, very doubtful about where, where we would be up to in, in, in, in a world scene. Ah I would like to think ah that we'll, we, we c-, we could bypass all of that. But I, I don't know that we can. Andrew Moore: Some things that you said about Rum Jungle, um are typical of the period but um appeared very curious in the modern perspective. For instance, you refer to men's spading uranium [indecipherable]. 44 gallon drums, which, can you imagine what that meant as far as ah, as um problems with medical effects and that sort of thing. At time 00:29:29 Summary: Various Q&A about issues of the '50s and how they affected him, including a question to Menzies about the Security Service Keywords: Edward (Eddie) Ward, Security Service (ASIO) Andrew Moore: Some things that you said about Rum Jungle, um are typical of the period but um appeared very curious in the modern perspective. For instance, you refer to men's spading uranium [indecipherable]. 44 gallon drums, which, can you imagine what that meant as far as ah, as um problems with medical effects and that sort of thing. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, at the time, that was precisely what they were doing. Andrew Moore: Yes, that's … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. Well, that was exactly what was taking place. They were just putting it into drums up there. And some were being stored for quite a while! And ah, and, and what could happen in that ah, ah, ah could be quite a danger, there's no doubt about it. But that was the way it was being handled at that time. Andrew Moore: Were you very affected by the Cold War years? You knew ma-, you knew many, well, members of the communist party in your earlier life and did you ever feel that the security service w-, had some interest in you? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I don't know w-, ah, ah I never gave it a thought! They probably did. They, ah … Andrew Moore: The question that you asked Menzies, um about payment to the security service, that was a, a prearranged thing—you asked him whether or not there was some limit that might be paid? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes! But there was no prearranged question—there was no suggestion of a prearranged question. Menzies got the shock of his life and had it not been for the heckling and interjections coming from Teddy Ward, who was a friend, nevertheless, ah, ah it would have been answered. And it was not answered because Menzies sat down because it had him thoroughly hooked—he couldn't answer it. How much was paid without reference to him as the head of the Australian Government. Andrew Moore: What were the pressures on your during the period of the split in the Labor Party? The activity of Santamaria and the industrial group? At time 00:31:40 Summary: The Santamaria conflict and a meeting trying to get rid of him as the Macquarie candidate. Keywords: BA Santamaria, Industrial Groups, Mr Uren, Mr Campbell, Mr Ashley, Mr Haylen, Mr Palmer, Petrov Affair, Joe Cahill, Andy Fisher, John Curtin Andrew Moore: What were the pressures on your during the period of the split in the Labor Party? The activity of Santamaria and the industrial group? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Actually, none at all, none at all! As a matter of fact ah, I was able to cope with the ah situation and what I did here in the electorate, I was able to ah, ah put a wall round the electorate as against the feuding and trouble. Despite the fact that Uren and Evatt and Campbell and Ashleigh and Haylen had all come to Lithgow to have a meeting, the purpose of which was to get rid of Tony Luchetti and have a new member for Macquarie! A seat that Uren had hoped to win. And when the meeting was held, I was not invited to speak until the meeting was more than halfway over, and when I did speak, they didn't have a feather to fly. And Evatt told people—including a brother-in-law of mine, who was on his side very closely, a chap named Palmer—that he was extremely sorry. They'd been very foolish to have let me speak! Because I didn't talk about Doc Evatt, I didn't talk about Petrov, I didn't talk about Santamaria. I talk about the problems of this district, I talk about the needs of keeping Joe Cahill in office. I did say this—which had some reference to Doc—I thought that we ought to try to get a balanced ah approach to the problems so that the people would have the same respect for our party leadership today as they had day, in the days of ah Andy Fisher and John Curtain and so on. Andrew Moore: How did you feel about Evatt, generally, as a leader then? At time 00:33:18 Summary: How he didn't have a high regard for Doc Evatt; how he let the people of Glen Davis down, and his rudeness to some campaigners. Keywords: Glen Davis, Miss donnelly*, Doc Evatt Andrew Moore: How did you feel about Evatt, generally, as a leader then? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I, I didn't have a very high regard for him. He was a brilliant academic, he was a brilliant man. One, one couldn't help but deny, ah, ah admit that his … Unknown Speaker: Don't forget your papers. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: ability was outstanding. But as a man dealing with the workaday things, now, Glen Davis, the people at Glen Davis wanted him to go down there, they'd written him in the … he simply wouldn't reply to the letter! And ah they'd asked me specially, as they're having a meeting, to get some answer. And I remember one night, I finally got him outside of his office and asked him what he was going to do. And he wasn't going to do anything. He, he, he'd adopted the attitude that Glen Davis would close and it had to close and that's all there was to it! And ah well, I said: 'Very well, if you are not going to answer that question, well, all I'm going to do is go back to Glen Davis and tell them that I've written to you, I've spoken to you, I've pleaded with you to give an answer and if possible come to Glen Davis and you refuse to do it!' and the extraordinary thing happened, he'd sent a, a message to my secretary—who previously had been Ben Chifley's secretary, a Miss Donnelly—giving an answer, he couldn't go to a meeting, et cetera, but more or less wishing them well. And ah I was able to send that on to them. But in many ways, he was not a very wise man with the pipers who are round the town hall for my campaign opening meeting here in 1951. Evatt came along after those pipers had been up and down the street and what did he do? He said: 'What's this bloody menagerie doing here?' Now, that's the terrible thing to do to, to pipers who were great supporters of mine and ah anxious to help in a campaign and wanted to perform that signal honour by piping him on to the platform. 'What's this bloody menagerie going here?' He got inside the hall and he spend about 10 minutes talking to Bill Black, whom I'd defeated in the selection before going on the platform to start his meeting! Oh, bad! Very bad. Ah I'd much … Andrew Moore: So that's when you stood up to Evatt and … What's the significance of those letters in your papers from the, the series of correspondence that are obviously from people un-, under Santamaria's control? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, obviously, that, that was a reaction that I more or less expected not the extent, but because I'd voted for the spill motion, they thought: well, there's Tony Luchetti … At time 00:35:40 Summary: Circumstances of his vote for a spill motion involving officers and a new ballot for leadership. Keywords: Armstrong, Fraser, Daly, Mullens, Bourke, Keon A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, obviously, that, that was a reaction that I more or less expected not the extent, but because I'd voted for the spill motion, they thought: well, there's Tony Luchetti … Andrew Moore: You better just talk about the spill motion, though. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I-, i-, m'mm? Andrew Moore: Which spill motion are you talking about? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I'm talking of the spill motion when the motion was moved to have a, a spill of offices, to have a new ballot for leadership. And as I had voted finally for that, I, I didn't intend to vote for it, neither did Armstrong or Fraser or Daley or any of us. We weren't going to vote for it. Well, when they started taking names, we said: 'Righto, you can put our names down, too.' And we voted ah for the spill motion. And when our names appeared in the paper of having voted for the spill, well, our names were with Keon, Mullens, Burke ah and, and the rest of them! So in Victoria, they said: 'Well, these boys are altogether, this is, represents a, a pretty strong team.' And of course, to encourage me, I, I got, I got those letters. Andrew Moore: M'mm. As a Labor Party man representing ah a country area, you were also necessarily forced into the position of adopting a, a stand point that's closely aligned—in some issues at least—with the Country Party, of looking after the interests of constituents who happened to be graziers. How does, what does that mean ideologically? What do you do then? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, my basic attitude, of course, was to help people in the electorate. How they voted, what church they went to or whether they didn't go to a church, never concerned me. If they had a problem, a person in the country might be worried about the price of petrol, well, I thought that was a justifiable matter to become involved. They might be concerned about a fertiliser subsidy and ah, ah the battling farmer could get a subsidy that would help him to keep his farm going. I thought was a reasonable thing to help them. At time 00:36:50 Summary: How his attitude was to work for his electorate and be involved in party policies; a story about Clyde Cameron in the House. Keywords: Country Party, Clyde Cameron, Caucus, House of Representatives, Wheat Bill, Arthur Calwell A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, my basic attitude, of course, was to help people in the electorate. How they voted, what church they went to or whether they didn't go to a church, never concerned me. If they had a problem, a person in the country might be worried about the price of petrol, well, I thought that was a justifiable matter to become involved. They might be concerned about a fertiliser subsidy and ah, ah the battling farmer could get a subsidy that would help him to keep his farm going. I thought was a reasonable thing to help them. The important thing, of course, is that you try to do what you can for your electorate but in the long run, what you're doing in parliament is voting for your parliamentary party's policy, and as long as you are there, as I was—ah because I missed very few days, very few sitting of the house—ah I, I was there to record my vote on a basic issue. All sorts of matters that came up which was the Labor Party policy, some of them I may not have agreed a hundred per cent in caucus, I might have had a, a disagreement. But when it came to a vote in the house, well, my vote was with the Labor Party. On one occasion, quite a number of us voted against the closure of a debate—Clive Cameron, Clyde Cameron, moved ah, ah the closure of a debate on a wheat bill. And without authority from the party, no instruction, no decision of caucus, the whip had made no decision on it, but he just jumped up and moved the question be put. The result was: there was about 15 or 16 of us including Arthur Calwell. We all voted against the closure. Ah and we couldn't have closed in any case because the government had the numbers to prevent it from being closed. But it was something we didn't want because we'd always argued in parliament there should be the utmost time a-, made available to debate all sorts of issues. And with a government in office that was vulnerable, we wanted all the time to do those things. Andrew Moore: Was there an element of disappointment in becoming a, a parliamentarian? Were you at all let down? You've tried, this is your forth time you succeed, were you at all disappointed with what you found there? At time 00:39:20 Summary: The occasional disappointment of being a parliamentarian, with the example of the bitterness surrounding the spill motion. Keywords: Australian Parliament, shadow cabinet Andrew Moore: Was there an element of disappointment in becoming a, a parliamentarian? Were you at all let down? You've tried, this is your forth time you succeed, were you at all disappointed with what you found there? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah I, generally speaking, I, I, I was delighted to become a member of parliament. It was a tremendous thing to think that you were one of ah the members of the parliament—of the National Parliament of Australia—to having a say, hopefully, in the affairs of the nation. But issues did arise from time to time when ah, ah disappointing. At one time after the um, that spill motion ah debate and vote, when there was quite a lot of hostility and feeling, I was quite disturbed. As a matter of fact, one evening, I, in the House I was writing down that I never thought that I'd live to see the day when there was such bitterness among members of, of, of the party. And there was, there was quite a lot of hostility. Ah I was able to ride over the top of them and to become a, a member of the, in the cabinet, of the ah shadow cabinet and all of the rest of it. But it was still a very unhappy experience to find that feeling there. And quite a lot of it was ah press-manufactured, made ah deliberately for the purpose of promoting discord and ah, and ah feelings among our people which would be damaging to the party. And in, unhappily, in this sort of situation, we seemed to be extremely gullible and easily ah led up the garden path by the propagandists who want to play ah their game and to ah divide our ranks. And even today, I suppose, in parliament, there, we've got those sort of things happening at the present time. And then we have the unfortunate thing about leaks of parliamentary information, party information. And that … Andrew Moore: To what extent do you believe, then, in open government? At time 00:41:23 Summary: His views on open government, with thoughts about the leaking of information. Keywords: Senate Andrew Moore: To what extent do you believe, then, in open government? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I, I believe as far as practical, you should have open government. I, I think that the government should be there to do its job, and, and what it's doing in the main should be sufficiently clear and open that ah you would have no fears about anybody knowing anything about it because you should be putting on the line what you propose to do. It may be matters of strategy of how you're going to handle some delicate situation. Perhaps if you lack numbers in the senate or something like that. But generally speaking, should try to ah, ah develop the, the policy of open government. It has its difficulties, I know, and cabinet ministers and leaders are not keen to have that sort of thing. But ah one of the great problems quite often are, are people in high places who do the leaking and letting information out and ah they're in … Andrew Moore: Can you recall the instances of that? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, there have been cases ah in the past but ah I don't know there's any point in ah digging up those skeletons of other days. But unhappily, ah, ah people ah holding positions quite often like to make their own personal position clear. And ah, and by doing that they're prepared to leak certain information. Ah, ah well, in a friendly way, and I won't go beyond it, in the, some of the enquiries we've had of recent date, things have been said by people … not that they were so damaging but they were unwise to be said, that's all. Andrew Moore: M'mm. You were a strong and trenchant critic of transnational corporations—multinational corporations. Does that mean you stood … this is obviously to do with your interest in Australian national development? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Ah very definitely, too, because one of the things that disturbs me that ah rich in resources as we are, we are not getting the benefit of our resources beyond, perhaps, the employment of some people in jobs. And one of the complaints I made in other days that always seemed to be getting out of the export of minerals as a hole in a ground and we were not getting anything worthwhile in return. And this is particularly so over recent years with all the export of coal, iron ore in particular—apart from anything else—copper, lead, zinc, ah uranium or anything else—ah we've got massive quantities of iron ore and coal going out the country and we seem to be getting further into debt. A balance of payments are in trouble. And we're depending on money flowing in from overseas by depreciating currency. That, to me, is not very ah good at all and I think that we ought to be looking at ourselves and saying: just how far do we go in this? At time 00:43:04 Summary: His commitment to Australian national development, including comments about free trade. Keywords: Zinc, coal, balance of payment, copper, lead, Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand (NZ) A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Ah very definitely, too, because one of the things that disturbs me that ah rich in resources as we are, we are not getting the benefit of our resources beyond, perhaps, the employment of some people in jobs. And one of the complaints I made in other days that always seemed to be getting out of the export of minerals as a hole in a ground and we were not getting anything worthwhile in return. And this is particularly so over recent years with all the export of coal, iron ore in particular—apart from anything else—copper, lead, zinc, ah uranium or anything else—ah we've got massive quantities of iron ore and coal going out the country and we seem to be getting further into debt. A balance of payments are in trouble. And we're depending on money flowing in from overseas by depreciating currency. That, to me, is not very ah good at all and I think that we ought to be looking at ourselves and saying: just how far do we go in this? True that some countries require assistance to help to build their resources. Some of the have, are the have nots and some of those who have, and ah we've got to look at ourselves in, in our own light. It was like the old problem where people here were free traders. They were free traders because England believed in free trade. And of course, England had to have free trade—they didn't have the resources. They wanted the wealth from Australia or India or New Zealand or Canada or South Africa. They wanted, they depended upon what they could get from foreign countries, and get it as cheaply as possible. But we, in our position, well, have got to protect our resources and any mining developments should be limited to the extent of filling necessary contracts—which had been carefully worked out—in price, and all other features. And as I remarked before about coal, it's one of the things ah that we've got to be exceedingly careful about because unless we observe the strictest rules, all we're doing is making great rod for our own back because those who buy our coal can easily say: 'Well, you've satisfied our ah needs for the time being, therefore, we'll have to take 50 per cent less and then you've got massive unemployment. You've got financial troubles.' Andrew Moore: In superintending this area, did you ever hope to attain higher office? Rex Connor, for instance, often, how did you, how did you relate to Rex … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, Rex and I got on ah remarkably well. Ah I … At time 00:45:40 Summary: Comments about Rex Connor, and how he (Tony) would have liked ministerial responsibility. Keywords: Reginald Francis Xavier (Rex) Connor, Western Australia (WA), Perth, Brisbane, constitution A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, Rex and I got on ah remarkably well. Ah I … Andrew Moore: But he wasn't min-, I mean, he wasn't min-, ah shadow minister for … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah, ah very long. Andrew Moore: This area for very long, was he? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: No, no. The thing about Rex was this: that I was going out, in a way, when he was developing them coming in. I'd been there for some time. As a matter of fact, when Rex was given the job of min-, ah minerals and energy—particularly the shadow job of, of ah energy—ah he, he had contracted me on several occasions and, as a matter of fact, before he put forward his pipeline policy, he phoned me about it and we discussed it. And I was quite in accord with what he had ah, ah put up. I, as a matter of fact, I had great respect for Rex. Andrew Moore: He's a remarkable man. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah, well, Rex was doing a good job and he was protecting Australian interests, he, he was developing ah, ah an industry here that had some base, he was seeing that we were getting a proper price for our ah raw materials, our minerals. And he was preventing foreign companies from just walking in and taking the prize. They couldn't do that with Rex Connor. And ah Rex and I had ah a pretty well, very happy relationship on all of these matters. But my unfortunate thing was: I was up, going well in the sixties and I, I was one of the elected in the 12 executive, and in the 27 cabinet, I, I'd have been one of the top men but when it came to our victory in '72, well, '72, I was sixty-eight! Ah my age among other things. Andrew Moore: Ah has that left you with a sense of disappointment? Do you feel unfilled? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I, well, I'd have been much happier, I would have been much happier if I'd have had an opportunity of taking some ministerial responsibility. I'd have been very much happier. I'd given a lot of time to matters of the people of local government, decentralisation. I'd visions of ah constitutional changes in Australia. Of having provinces instead of the states. What we've got in states today—this residue from other days when New South Wales spreads over a vast area and Tas-, ah Tasmania's got a little area, the small area. And Victoria is bounded by the River Murray and so ah this doesn't make sense. In a vast area of Western Australia and Queensland, they can't argue that they're decentralising because they've got a government in Brisbane or Perth, because the vast areas of the north ah, ah haven't got very much local authority or control. Geographically they're out of the picture just as much as if they put, the government was coming from Canberra. Andrew Moore: M'mm. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And I believed then—and I've got no reason to change it very dramatically—that I think today that there ought to be changes in our Constitution which would strengthen our people in their areas where they lived. Dealing the domestic, the local issues, ah the petty issues, the small issues. And in national issues that we had a more coordinated, unified policy. Andrew Moore: Rex Connor's a man you had a particularly high regard for, what about those on the other side of the fence—the political fence—that you ah dis-, did you have a particular dislike for, well, I got the impression that you and Howard Beale, for instance, were not exactly the closest of allies. At time 00:48:58 Summary: Some comments about Howard Beale, and an incident with Eric Harrison. Keywords: Howard Beale, WC Wentworth, Eric Harrison, New Guard Andrew Moore: Rex Connor's a man you had a particularly high regard for, what about those on the other side of the fence—the political fence—that you ah dis-, did you have a particular dislike for, well, I got the impression that you and Howard Beale, for instance, were not exactly the closest of allies. Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: He was an amazing fellow, Howard Beale, ah he, he and I often conflicted because he representing something very much different to myself. His ideas were different, he, he came from a different background ah and ah … Andrew Moore: He was indeed, at times, rather uncharitable, I thought. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah … Event: Laughs Andrew Moore: For instance, at one stage, he c-, he r-, says that the honourable member for Macquarie is the arch exponent of the practice of getting up and making loud assertions which he hopes will pass for facts. He's given to wild, reckless and extravagant assertion. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes. Andrew Moore: I assumed this meant that this meant that you and Howard Beale didn't get on too well. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah, ah I never worried much about him personally because I had an extraordinary experience one time with ah, with ah, ah … the, another minister in the House who, who was very loud and strong with his speeches, who … I'll think of his name shortly, ah … I think he was a member from the inner city. Anyhow, but anyhow, an extraordinary thing … Andrew Moore: W.C. Wentworth. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah, Wentworth and I knew one another fairly well. Ah one, the only thing we had in common, he, he, he knew a lot about the bush. Ah and he'd been over vast tracks of countryside of remote areas and ah we talked over lots and lots of things. Ah Harrison, Eric Harrison. Andrew Moore: He was a member of the New Guard, for instance. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, that's right. Well, Eric was an amazing fellow. I made a speech one time, and I really ah, ah had a very, it was a fighting type of speech which I criticised the government trenchantly. Said, and while I'm speaking, he's interjecting—'Rubbish! Nonsense! Rubbish!' You know, and he was going, 'God!' Shortly out, I was out in the toilet and he, he was there. He said: 'Congratulations!' I said: 'What's that all about?' He said: 'You made a very good speech!' I said: 'What are you saying?' He said: 'You made a good speech.' I said: 'Not the way you were performing and interjecting!' He said: 'Don't worry about that,' he said, 'you made a very good speech by any standard.' He said: 'You, you did very, very well,' he said, 'I was only doing that to put you off what you were saying'—and he said—'that was a, a deliberate campaign!' Andrew Moore: Did you enjoy amicable relations with many members of the Liberal Party? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh, oh, I, I might say good day to them or something but we never had any relationships of any type of at all. We just kept to our particular friends and our own associates. We talked to ah everybody. We'd nod and say g'day. Some people were interesting and some were not, and … Andrew Moore: Who were your closest associates in the Labor Party? At time 00:51:47 Summary: His close associates in the ALP, and how the character of the ALP has become more academic over the years. Keywords: Norman Makin, Broken Hill, Dan Minogue, South Australia (SA), Mr Galvin, Alan Fraser*, Frank Crean, Jim Cairns Andrew Moore: Who were your closest associates in the Labor Party? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, let me think now, ah Norman Maken was a very great old friend of mine. Often we'd go out and have a cup of tea together. He was a real old timer from way back—you know, he died recently in his nineties. And he'd come from B-, from Broken Hill, his people were Cornish. And ah he knew the mining story. And as I had been round Broken Hill and down the mines there as I had been in Kalgoorlie and, and Tasmania and Queensland and elsewhere … Andrew Moore: Who else? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah Norman Maken was most interesting. A grand old man was Danny Minogue. But ah Danny was a, a quiet ah fellow and he worked hard to get a town hall clock in Sydney. And he, he, eh was an, ah rabid ah defender of the rights of the pensioners and he was always wanting a, a pension increase or something. Ah Dan, Danny was a, an [indecipherable]. Another chap w-, I liked very much was um, ah the chap here from Can-, ah from South Australia—Galvin. He, he was a very good type. He'd been the union official and then he came to parliament. He lost an election and subsequently died. Ah Allan Fraser was a chap … ye-, not, not that you got pally with Alan, Alan was a fellow with clipped sentences, said what he wanted to say, you knew where you were up to with him. Ah but ah it wasn't a close relationship. Ah one of the most interesting periods I had, I shared an office for a period with Gough Whitlam, Frank Crean and occasionally Jim Cairns came in—that was before we got to government. We had a wonderful office—right in the front of Parliament House near the front door there. It was really good, you could let yourself in and out, most ah convenient place. And, and good company to be with on issues that you wanted to talk about debate. Andrew Moore: Do you feel there's been a general change in the Labor Party? Looking at someone like Whitlam, it's very hard to see what he would have in common with someone such as yourself that comes from a very typical working-class Labor background and um deprived—that sort of thing … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah … Andrew Moore: I wondered whether or not there was a turning point in Labor history when Eddie Ward lost the, the chance to be-, to ah be deputy leader. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, well, he, in Clare, he lost ah, ah in that ah battle that time for deputy leader and Perse was an interesting fella. Ah I think there has been a change to some of that. W-, we have a more ah academic ah style sort of parliament. We've got more c-, people with some brands of cultures. We, we've got fewer people who've come from industry. Fewer people with dirt under the fingernails. Andrew Moore: I don't find that a very attractive prospect, really. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah the, the change? Andrew Moore: No. At time 00:54:43 Summary: The sadness of changes in politics: how in the past, parliamentarians made speeches (unread) from what they knew and their experiences in the electorate. Keywords: 'Burke's speech at Bristol' (1774) Andrew Moore: No. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: No. And one of the saddest things of all, where we, at one time when I was there, we were, we were not allowed to read a speech. Ah you, you some would get away with it and read much by saying we're s-, quoting from copious notes. And in the senate, they broke the rules flagrantly there. But generally in the House, members made their speeches ah from what they knew and ah their experience and their electorate and their problems as they knew them. Andrew Moore: But they don't any more. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: They don't. Today, you, you can get a person who, who ah … Andrew Moore: That's research staff. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah, it's all research and with very little knowledge, ah can be reading about something and know extremely little about. And that is bad because quite often, they're quoting people whose knowledge of a subject, other than some record, is, is, is very little. And this is a sad and pathetic thing. That parliament is in this sort of decline. You see, you never, you rarely get anything like … I was looking at recently an Obert speech in Bristol, a way back, I think, in 1600s. I'm looking at it somewhere, and it was a fantastically good ah speech of a, ah of, of the problems of the member of Parliament and how he should sacrifice his repose, et cetera, and how he should do this, that and to serve the people and so on. And do everything but surrender his own personal knowledge and personality to the electorate but everything else should be surrendered to them. And ah, and how we got people from the country, well, think of some of the members who'd come in and make a speech. One person who ah, who, in the course of speech, asked his dentist to have his teeth ready—'If you'd have my [indecipherable]. ready, you know, sort of thing. And somebody else sent a cheerio call to the wife ah during the speech. Ah … Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: extraordinary. But it, it was all in the plain Australian dinkum. It, it, it wasn't ah prepared, stage managed or presented in any stilted way, you've got the character, the personality, the person. Andrew Moore: M'mm. What do you consider the highlight, then, of your parliamentary career? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I think my greatest experiences were, among other things, being at the United Nations … At time 00:57:03 Summary: Highlights of his career including being at the UN, and various overseas conferences Keywords: United Nations (UN), Inter-Parliamentary Union Conference Bangkok (1956), Lima, Peru, South Pacific Conference, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I think my greatest experiences were, among other things, being at the United Nations … Andrew Moore: Tell me more about that. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah we went to the United Nations as a representative of the Australian Parliament and ah at the United Nations was able to sit in on quite a number of ah debates. We were not ah, ah were not given the opportunity to speak but a represent there were opportunity to see them in action and at the briefing section of our members ah each day, we attended them to hear what the ambassador or our representative said and what the functionaries underneath him were saying. Had it opportunity or … Andrew Moore: Went on another overseas delegation, too, didn't we? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: A-, and I went with two other very important ones. We went to the first inter-parliamentary union conference that Australia was represented at Bangkok in 1956. And again, I went to an inter-parliamentary union conference at Lima, Peru. I think that was '68. And another thing that I did do, ah because ah of my position, I got to a South Pacific ah conference ah in, in the 1970s, in the Whitlam period, and I also went to a ah, a, a, a meeting, went to expect our work in Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Andrew Moore: You were a very out-, outspoken critic of colonialism, neo-colonialism in a period … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, yes. And I, I, I'm emphasising that. I think that we should, too, because we've taken advantage of people and tragically, quite often, with our way of developing people, w-, all we're doing was treaching, teaching them bad habits. I thought of New Guinea and from my earliest visits to New Guinea, ah we were getting them to do things precisely the same way as we were going. Now, this was a new, virgin field where they could have been developing along great cooperative lines—they were not. And ah Church of England minister who was a friend of mine, a member of the Labor party, the Reverend Father Alf Clittard, and Anglican minister who'd been at South Bathurst and Portland. He'd been up at [indecipherable]. doing mission work up there at Christian co-ops, and in New Guinea for a period until he got a skin complaint and had to come out. At time 00:58:46 Summary: How he was an outspoken critic of colonialism and neo-colonialism, with examples from PNG, and an anecdote about Simogen Peter and Albert Namatjira. Keywords: Papua New Guinea (PNG), Church of England (Anglican Church), Rev Alf Clitt*, Mount York, Bishop Hand*, Simogen Peter*, Albert Namatjira A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: He'd been up at [indecipherable]. doing mission work up there at Christian co-ops, and in New Guinea for a period until he got a skin complaint and had to come out. He, he was doing good thing and ah I think it was a Bishop Hand up there was quite good, too. There's so many people doing very valuable work. But what do we come? We, we get them doing the same sort of thing, doing the same sort of ah economic structures and so on as, as we have done. And that isn't good. And when it comes to people, when you know the character of people, and I was deeply impressed with some of our … well, Simogen Pita from New Guinea who was in Canberra for the Queen's visit in '54, there's a man of outstanding quality. He, he's been injured in, during the war, a man of great quality, and then Albert Namatjira, now Albert Namatjira and Simogen Pita, was at one of the functions in particular—I remember them clearly—when ah it was a reception. And ah they stood aloof from the rushing crowd, they weren't grabbing at food or anything like that. They behaved in a thoroughly orderly, and in a broad sense, a gentlemanly manner. And when everything was over, while other people were rushing to get cabs ah or buses or something to get back to their boarding places or Parliament House, these people were standing back—these two men—they were an example. They were very good and I knew an Aboriginal here, who's name ah was Douglas Grant, an Aboriginal brought to this district by Grant whose family had been in Queensland after a massacre and he as a babe was left. And they brought him here. But you talk of things that we did. One of the things I thought was good, I worked for the Aboriginal voting rights—we toured Australia and we got for the people, ah the black people, a right to have a vote, which they didn't have. They could go to war, they could serve the country but they couldn't have a vote. And ah they didn't have the privilege of being enrolled. And we managed to get them ah right—they, voluntary, it wasn't compulsory for them to enrol. And they were entitled to vote. At time 01:01:07 Summary: How he worked for Aboriginal Australian voting rights, and how racism is common in working class Australia. Keywords: Aboriginal Australian, Douglas Grant, massacre, Sir Johannes Bjelke-Petersen A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: But you talk of things that we did. One of the things I thought was good, I worked for the Aboriginal voting rights—we toured Australia and we got for the people, ah the black people, a right to have a vote, which they didn't have. They could go to war, they could serve the country but they couldn't have a vote. And ah they didn't have the privilege of being enrolled. And we managed to get them ah right—they, voluntary, it wasn't compulsory for them to enrol. And they were entitled to vote. Andrew Moore: Would you accept, though, that racism is a strong part of working class, of the working class experience in Australia? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I think it is to some extent—yes. I don't know how strong it is today but ah we, we've had it pretty strong from our earliest days because the coloured person in Australia was treated less than animal. Ah in, in their own district here, Aboriginals were poisoned, they were shot. They were treated ah very badly and ah it's one of the sad things ah about life here. But a good thing that we did do during the time I was there—work on our mining committee and trying to get some sort of uniform mining policies. And when you have people caught in Western Australian and Bjelke-Petersen in Queensland, it's more important than ever to have a uniform … Event: Interview Paused At time 01:02:29 Summary: End of session Session 1 --------- At time 00:00:00 Summary: AS Luchetti Interviewed by Andrew Moore. Tape Five. Keywords: AS (Tony) Luchetti, Andrew Moore, Australian Labor Party (ALP), LIthgow Andrew Moore: This is the fifth tape of an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti by Andrew Moore, conducted on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the parliament's bicentenary publications project. This interview is taking place today, 11 August 1983, in Lithgow. Mr Luchetti, you were talking about the need for a coordinated mining co? At time 00:00:01 Summary: Why a coordinated mining code is important to Australia. Keywords: Mining code, natural resources Andrew Moore: This is the fifth tape of an interview with Mr Tony Luchetti by Andrew Moore, conducted on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Library for the parliament's bicentenary publications project. This interview is taking place today, 11 August 1983, in Lithgow. Mr Luchetti, you were talking about the need for a coordinated mining co? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, I think that was very important because in dealing with the mineral reserves and um financial problems and policies, it is necessary to have complete control of the exploitation of our ah minerals. Ah to know, firstly, that we're not using, digging out too many, too much of them. We ought to know more importantly than anything else, that those who were getting them are, are not people that belong to other countries who are probably much richer than what we are—we're not helping some third world country, some backward country to develop but we're probably helping to build up ah machines of some super power. And from my point of view, it is necessary to look to the future of this country to know in all the, our resources, what we're doing to husband them as well as possible, to preserve them for the future, to know that we'll be able to ah, ah use them, use the type of resource in a hundred years' time or two hundred years' time—because in the world, a hundred years is quite a short period. Particularly when I'm seventy-nine years of age myself when I'm talking about these matters—how the time gets away. And I think of my father's period and all of this a-, and, and the history of our country. It's vital, it's utterly vital that we have complete control over our resources and we should not allow them to be exploited to the satisfaction of others and the disadvantage and detriment of our own people. Andrew Moore: Mr Luchetti, can you think of a debate—you've participated in many um significant debates within the parliamentary chamber over a considerable number of years—can you think of one debate that stands out in your mind as being more significant or more emotive than any other? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I think that one of them ah was on financial matters ah on one occasion. I, I'd made a speech on ah some financial matters which ah satisfied quite a lot of my colleagues in the party and ah some of the people outside and one or two of the journalists said: 'Oh, you did well on that ah subject,' and I, I was very well received and ah my knowledge of finance is extremely limited but at the same time, there were basic thoughts on fundamental matters, grassroots sort of philosophy and ah … At time 00:02:18 Summary: His involvement in a parliamentary debate on financial matters; how he researched his material, and the importance of the Parliamentary Library. Keywords: Parliamentary Library, Canberra, Mrs Warde* A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: I think that one of them ah was on financial matters ah on one occasion. I, I'd made a speech on ah some financial matters which ah satisfied quite a lot of my colleagues in the party and ah some of the people outside and one or two of the journalists said: 'Oh, you did well on that ah subject,' and I, I was very well received and ah my knowledge of finance is extremely limited but at the same time, there were basic thoughts on fundamental matters, grassroots sort of philosophy and ah … Andrew Moore: Where did you assemble your information from given that this is the pre research staff period? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: When I was in parliament? Andrew Moore: M'mm. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah, ah well, ah I, I gathered lots of information from my research experience in ah many fields ah, ah of life. Ah plus the fact I sought information from the library and I do pay a tribute to ah those in the Parliamentary Library for their cooperation and assistance at providing statistical information, background information on topics. And I have to say that in my period in Canberra, that staff was extremely limited in numbers: nothing like ah the ah services which are available at the present time. Ah one time there was a Mrs Ward, ah she was an amazing woman—the work that she did, and how she helped members. And she was one of very, very few in the, i-, in the ah library making ah services available. Andrew Moore: Another one of, of your concerns and preoccupations over parliamentary career, Mr Luchetti, is your attitude towards what might be called the permissive society and in a trenchant attitude against um some of the attitudes of various people such as Andrea, for instance, there's debate um in parliament where you're referring to an interview with Andrea, um when that person was playing in a film starring of, ah Rudolph Valentino and she dressed up in her, quote, 'all her pretties', hoping that he would seduce her. Um apart from nothing that Andrea was a supporter of the Liberal Party, ah you suggested that both she and ah some of the um atrocious, what you refer to as atrocious, aspects of The Dave Allen Show shouldn't be seen to be family viewing. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. I didn't know that I, I'd forgotten completely that I'd paid her that compliment. I think I was treating her rather kindly and ah I, I, I was nauseated. Well, you can understand my position, being reared in a, rather a big family, rather an honest family group where we talked things rationally and fairly within a family. You've got to understand world problems honestly within a family. And in the company to which I was generally associating, ah it was not the sort of behaviour that I thought warranted much ah publicity. At time 00:04:20 Summary: His outspokenness about the permissive society during his parliamentary career, and whether you can legislate for morality. Keywords: Rudolph Valentino, Liberal Party of Australia, Andrea*, Dave Allen A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. I didn't know that I, I'd forgotten completely that I'd paid her that compliment. I think I was treating her rather kindly and ah I, I, I was nauseated. Well, you can understand my position, being reared in a, rather a big family, rather an honest family group where we talked things rationally and fairly within a family. You've got to understand world problems honestly within a family. And in the company to which I was generally associating, ah it was not the sort of behaviour that I thought warranted much ah publicity. As a matter of fact, for human relationships, I don't know that you can legislate for morality. I don't think you can do those things. But I think it's an extremely bad thing when you get some types of people ah writing or depicting, revealing, showing something, ah which will incite the desires, the attitudes of others. Because when it comes to … whether it's sexual matters or anything, the world has gone on, families have grown and ah I don't think people need very much incitement and encouragement in matters of this kind. I think that ah these matters in the world will go on without ah perhaps an Andrea or anybody like her. And again, ah it, it nauseates me to hear people who are supposed to come from the better class of society—these silver tails should want to present such a spectacle as … but I complained about it that time. Andrew Moore: You felt so strongly in this area that in 1974 you voted against the Family Law Bill? At time 00:06:48 Summary: How in '74 he voted against the Family Law Bill, the speech he made in parliament, and a defence of his views on working mothers. Keywords: Family Law Bill, matrimonial causes, children, United Kingdom (UK), Edith Maude Luchetti, Alec Luchetti Andrew Moore: You felt so strongly in this area that in 1974 you voted against the Family Law Bill? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes—or, or was it the ah matrimonial ah, ah causes? Yes—I, I had done some research on that and there were some aspects of that that I disagreed ah with. I think I probably made a speech on it, too. Yes, I think I did. And ah … Andrew Moore: I have it here if you … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes—I think I had made a speech on that and ah took a stand o-, on that matter, which naturally pleased many of my electors and wouldn't have made a few others altogether happy. But they were matters of importance such as that. Well, you're obliged to ah take a stand, to have a say, and … Andrew Moore: You see, in, in this ah, in so-called um, quotation marks, heavily emphasised, 'enlightened age', um your attitudes about the Family Law Bill would be seen as being rather primitive. Um you said about ah women, for instance, that you were reared on the credo that when I was, we were trying to do, that we were trying to do for women, was to take them out of industry and give them a position of dignity in their own home. You saw that the Family Law Bill was an attack upon marriage: the family, the woman, the homemaker, the mother. Um it is the duty of the parliament to make good laws to protect the law and provide justice. I don't think anyone would possibly disagree with that but ah can you not see that there are people who would ah feel that that was rather an antiquated view of um female, of the female role? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yes, and unhappily, I think it's tragic that that is so because today, what sort of spectacle have we got? Mothers, who unfortunately, many of whom are obliged to go to work to get a living, and their children being neglected. And it's my old-fashioned view that there is no be-, person better-suited and ah designed by nature to care for the children than mum. And I think it's a, a, a most unfortunate and ah unhappy thing that women today go out to work, their children are neglected, they come home from school, there's no one to care for them. And ah some people who are, are privileged to have good incomes, they can go off to their profession, their business. And ah they've got a, a child keep, caring place to look after their children and look and care for them—or they've got someone coming into the home—while the poor, old average working man's wife, she seems to have to stay at home and care for the children. And as for women going out in the industry, I don't think it should be a necessity. If women do have to go out because they require money for the necessities of life—if dad's unemployed and so on—but I, as I said, I was reared on the thought: well, we want to get people out of those ah difficulty jobs. And one of the things that our history tells us—and from the United Kingdom—where women and children were in minds, we had to get them out of those mins. We had to give them a place in their home. And when I think of the type of life that I was accustomed to, although we all worked home, hard, it was a home of decency and dignity and people would say of Alec and Edith Maude Luchetti that they were very decent, good sort of people and they worked hard to rear a family. Of course, we supplemented our income and mum worked hard on a, ah milking cows and she was doing her kind of work but she was at home. I would like to think we could do something for the mums who have to stay at home. Andrew Moore: Yes, it is like many things, isn't it, a class thing? That is: that it is the working people o-, often, the working people and the wives of working people who are in the position of having to go out to work. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh well, that's what I regret. I, I regret that very much and it is true. As I was speaking to a, some women who worked in a, a certain factory and they were saying about how some people were saying: 'Oh, we like going to work.' And these other said: 'We do not like going to work. We go to work because we need the money.' And that is the honest statement with many, many women: they go to work because they require money. At time 00:10:37 Summary: Continues about working mothers, including how it is a class issue. Keywords: Working class, school leaver A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Oh well, that's what I regret. I, I regret that very much and it is true. As I was speaking to a, some women who worked in a, a certain factory and they were saying about how some people were saying: 'Oh, we like going to work.' And these other said: 'We do not like going to work. We go to work because we need the money.' And that is the honest statement with many, many women: they go to work because they require money. Ah they, if they're to have a television ah set, if they're to have ah, ah a motor car, if they're to have a telephone, if they're hav-, having some of the mod convenience, ah electric blanket, well, they need extra money in the home. Dad's money will not provide all the money required. And in this period, well, some people have to go out to provide for that. And the un-, and the extraordinary thing is: some of the women who do go out to work and take the jobs of some of the kids leaving school, well, don't need to go out to work. And I know one or two cases where there were some women out to doing the sorts of light receptionist jobs that could be done by any girl leaving school, and I think that's most unfortunate. Because I think it's a critical time when a boy or girl leaves school that they should have something to do, they should have employment and it's one of the most serious problems facing our country today. Andrew Moore: You didn't have much to say in your parliamentary career about foreign policy or foreign policy matters. Did you not regard that as your province? At time 00:12:16 Summary: His views on foreign policy. Keywords: Foreign policy, United Nations (UN), Bangkok, Peru, South Pacific, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Lebanon Andrew Moore: You didn't have much to say in your parliamentary career about foreign policy or foreign policy matters. Did you not regard that as your province? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah a-, actually, ah it wasn't my special cup of tea because I um, I, I felt that we had so many people so eager, willing and anxious to speak on foreign affairs. It was unnecessary for me to express any views. Although I had be-, I had attended, as you know, ah you, ah, ah finally, the United Nations in my last year, I'd attended the two world conferences, one at Bangkok and one at Lima, Peru. And I always tried to put forward the point of view of the ah unfortunates of the world, the people who needed the assistance, the nee-, people who needed help, as I visited the South Pacific area and also Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Whilst I did all of those things, quite a lot of our people getting involved in foreign affairs are doing more to make wars than to prevent wars. And this is one of the sad things. If you were to analyse the conduct of quite a lot of the world leaders who their campaigns in world affairs, let's look at say, Lebanon today, the tragic thing there. The, ah the, the conflict among the various groups there, the slaughter of the innocent, and, and, and the wickedness and wilful killing. It's a shocking and terrible thing. And I don't see that we're doing very much in any of these fields to halt these problems. And w-, we send out our peacekeeping forces. Instead of keeping the peace, well, they're in regions where the wars are just, seem to be simmering, if not bubbling up as much as ever before. And I, I, I didn't have any great confidence in my ability to alter that state of affairs. Andrew Moore: You said quite a few things against the government of North Vietnam, which is understandable in 1950s, but I … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. At time 00:14:15 Summary: Reasons for his statements against North Vietnam in the '50s, including his visit to Vietnam in '56. Keywords: North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Ngo Dinh Diem, Ho Chi Minh, French, United States of America (USA), Buddhism, Bishop of Vinh Long, Henry Cabot Lodge Jr, Cambodia, Kampuchea A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah. Andrew Moore: um do you still stick by them? I mean, that ah … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I, I was in Vietnam in 1956 and what I saw there, quite frankly, I had the greatest admiration for Ngo Dinh Diem. I thought Diem was a, a, a very good leader. He and Ho Chi Minh originally had fought to get rid o-, o-, of the French. They were a good united ah campaign there. And ah Diem seemed to ah have things organised. You can't, as a tourist, a visitor, ah sum up all the aspects of what's going on. But Diem did impress me as a man of coolness and of quality and a man trying to get things done because he, the lands were me-, made available for development and so on. And he was trying to pacify ah the local Buddhists with their temples being restored and so on. But the tragic thing, of course, with Diem, ah he was murdered ah which seemed to me to be w-, something that occurred with the connivance o-, o-, of, of the Americans who were supposed to be protecting the people there. And, and this is one of the terrible things in my opinion: he and a brother were murdered. I'd met another brother ah who was a Catholic bishop over there—the Bishop of Vinh Long. And ah I was disgusted to think that these things could occur and ah that American people who, whether it was Cabot Lodge or anybody else, I don't know. But ah someone seemed to me to be very positively involved in what was going on. Andrew Moore: At that time, though, you were um, ah given to making fairly strong statements of support for the government of South Vietnam which we now know is, was more a, a collection of villains than a ah … a puppet regime rather than, you know, a government that was interested in … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, I think in Diem's time, it, it was a pretty orderly state a-, and ah they had their problems, that is true. But I think with what's happened since the fall of Vietnam and what's happened in Cambodia or Campuchia, and the slaughter of the people there, well, the war hasn't solved very much for them other than the loss of tens of thousands of lives because those who won the war could not see that justice was done i-, in that country. Andrew Moore: From your experience, then, in the Australian Parliament, Mr Luchetti, who were the individuals that you would illuminate as being of those you have much respect for? Perhaps on both sides of the fence, but … At time 00:16:50 Summary: MPs who made great contributions, including Eddie Ward, Arthur Calwell and many others. Keywords: Member of Parliament (MP), Edward John Ward, Percy Clarey, HV (Doc) Evatt, Norman Makin, Methodist Church, Arthur Calwell, Kurrajong Guest House, John Curtin, Reg Pollard Andrew Moore: From your experience, then, in the Australian Parliament, Mr Luchetti, who were the individuals that you would illuminate as being of those you have much respect for? Perhaps on both sides of the fence, but … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Well, looking over the parliament through the years, I, I look upon many members who have made great contribution, some private members, backbenchers. In the Labor Party we've been so long in opposition, we haven't been able to really talk of men who have given the great ah, and ah service i-, in government because we've had so little and few opportunities in government. But in opposition and in parliament, we had many people who stood up and fought for the rights of people. And I think of the many people who have made their contribution. There was one who never became a leader but was close to it all the time—was Teddy Ward, Eddie War was one of the ah fearless Labor members who, in my opinion, made a significant contribution in upholding ah matters worthwhile. He was never hesitated to expose things that he believed to be wrong, and anybody who b-, engaged in any form of ah questionable conduct, Ward would not hesitate to expose them. He was a most capable speaker, he could speak for his half hour without looking at a note from, he might have a few pointers on an envelope or something. But he was a most capable fellow. I pay a tribute to him. And that's the person whom I knew during that time that I was in parliament. Of course, there were others ah who, who, who were quite capable, too. Ah Perse Clarey was a man of great quality. Um we also had the ah, the leaders of our party, ah Doctor Evatt had, was a brilliant academic. He was a man of outstanding quality. A man who could ah occupy all types of position, go to the United Nations, secure a top position. Men of quality like Norman Maken—ah not an excitable person. A lay preacher of the Methodist Church, whose sound, attitude in parliament was really commendable. He did much good in parliament. I pay a tribute to him. I think Arthur Calwell was never acknowledged to the extent that he should have been. Arthur was a, a good humanitarian. Andrew Moore: When did you meet Arthur Calwell the first time? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: The first time I met Arthur Calwell was in 1930 when I went to the Federal Conference in Canberra. I met him again when we had our differences with the federal party in 1930—ah, ah later in 1930—because Arthur was one of those activists who was really pushing things for the federal executive and had come to New South Wales trying to get support which he found lacking. But I sat with people in Canberra who ah at the dinner table or the breakfast table at the Kurrajong Guest House, I occupied a, a position at the end of the table where Curtain once sat and where Chifley sat before me and at this table, we had such men as Reg Pollard. A most competent fellow from Victoria, who was our agricultural man. He, he was a practical man. We had ah, ah Senator Kennelly who sat there. Ah and we had ah, um Arthur Drakeford, who was the minister for air. The man who helped to establish ah Qantas as a government enterprise and TAA. The man who told me of Curtain's work ah during the war and how he said how Curtain ah was worried, worried very greatly because he wanted to get our troops back from the Middle East—which was being opposed by the United Kingdom and the United States. They were opposed to our troops coming back because we'd been told from London that we could be lost and won in a long war. And Curtain insisted they come back and when he, he, he persisted and they, they were coming back, they were not provided with the escort vessels to protect the troop ah ships. And in those days, our planes could only go two or three hundred miles out from the coastline and back and cross the Indian Ocean we didn't have the protection needed for them. Arthur Drakeford was a, a, a, a most interesting ah personality. And the-, these were all great [indecipherable]. On the government's side, they had their ah brilliant men. Menzies were the most capable pol-, politician, ah, ah, ah a consummate actor ah and a very good ah speaker who said so little but was able to wrap it up so very well. At time 00:20:31 Summary: Continues list of MPS he remembers, with a story about Drakeford and Australian troops, and comments about Menzies and Whitlam. Keywords: Arthur Drakeford, Ben Chifley, Qantas, TAA Airlines, Middle East, Australian troops, World War Two (WW2), Sir Robert Gordon Menzies, Edward Gough Whitlam A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And in those days, our planes could only go two or three hundred miles out from the coastline and back and cross the Indian Ocean we didn't have the protection needed for them. Arthur Drakeford was a, a, a, a most interesting ah personality. And the-, these were all great [indecipherable]. On the government's side, they had their ah brilliant men. Menzies were the most capable pol-, politician, ah, ah, ah a consummate actor ah and a very good ah speaker who said so little but was able to wrap it up so very well. Quite often Chifley would comment after Evatt had spoken and say: 'What did he say?' And to find out what Chif-, ah what Menzies said would be a, an extremely difficult thing. He was such a polished performer. Quite frequently, wouldn't finish a sentence. He'd go to, and leave out of a couple of words and just merely raise his eyebrows. But he was a very consummate, capable politician and he got away with quite a lot by his skills and ah a pay tribute. Whitlam ah is a, a brilliant man. Ah bril-, Whitlam's knowledge of history is extremely good and when we would have functions, reception to dignitaries from foreign countries, Gough would be able to stand up and recite facts and information about the countries, their history and so on or some patriot or personality. And he would dwarf the ah, ah people from the government side, who were trying to make speeches of welcome or something of the kind. He, he was very good. Andrew Moore: After so many years of being a political wilderness, you must be one of the many people who were elated in ah, in 1972. At time 00:23:14 Summary: His elation at the ALP victory in '72, and how he was in Parliament for 24 years. Keywords: Labor Government, Killen, Hansard Committee Andrew Moore: After so many years of being a political wilderness, you must be one of the many people who were elated in ah, in 1972. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: What a joy it was to be able to sit on the right-hand side of the speaker! What a tremendous thing after all the years on the left-hand side, inside Berry on the cold side. Down in the Arctic Circle. And then to get over on the sunny side of Parliament House. Andrew Moore: For you it was 21 years? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: M'mm? Andrew Moore: Was it twenty years, for you? A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah I was in parliament for 24 years and four months. Andrew Moore: But when the Whitlam Government, it's twenty years … A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Ah yes, about 20 years, yes … Andrew Moore: Yes. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: Yeah, '51, ah '71 … 21 and a half years! Event: Laughs A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: So it was a long, long time and the feeling among our members was one of tremendous joy and satisfaction. And even to me, whilst I was somewhat disappointed that I'd reached the stage in my years, I didn't push myself, I didn't nominate for cabinet, at the same time, I had a feeling of regret that it couldn't have happened earlier. We almost managed it early when Arthur Calwell went within one ah seat of winning and Killen one and Me-, Menzies made the statement: 'Killen you're magnificent!' And he was to Menzies because he saved him that time. And ah all of these things emphasise in your mind: well, parliament is a very fluid sort of place, ah fortunes are rising and failing, and fading, and ah there's nothing static about it and it's wrong for people to make long-range political prophesies about what's going to happen because you don't know. But in, all in all, I was on the Hansard Committee to get a daily Hansard. I find one of my final things was to insist that we have our Parliament House on Capital Hill and there'd been moved to push it down on a lower area which I objected to very strongly. Menzies wanted to have it on the lake and other functionaries wanted to have it behind, on Camp Hill behind the present Parliament House. But the really focal point of Canberra was Capital Hill and I thought if parliamentary system is the centre, that's where the Parliament House ought to be. And on that committee, with ah Gordon Sc-, ah no, Gordon Bryant, we managed to win the battle and, and win that to get it on Capital Hill. Not very important in the economic life of the country but to me, was important. But I would, before I closed my remarks, ah Andrew, like to pay a compliment to our parliamentary system of government. To some of the officers of parliament who have been most useful. Ah to the messengers and to those attendants and others. To clerks of the House and many others who have really have done much to make parliament work. At time 00:25:08 Summary: His role on the committee to have Parliament House on Capital Hill, and remarks about Australia's system of government, including the role of political advisors. Keywords: Camp Hill, Capital Hill, Parliament House, Gordon Bryant, clerk, electorate A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And on that committee, with ah Gordon Sc-, ah no, Gordon Bryant, we managed to win the battle and, and win that to get it on Capital Hill. Not very important in the economic life of the country but to me, was important. But I would, before I closed my remarks, ah Andrew, like to pay a compliment to our parliamentary system of government. To some of the officers of parliament who have been most useful. Ah to the messengers and to those attendants and others. To clerks of the House and many others who have really have done much to make parliament work. And I think the important thing for us is not to destroy parliament, to make it work and to make it more effective. And one of the weaknesses today—and it's got to be faced at the present time—ah is ministerial authority. Where ministers want to run the whole parliamentary apparatus without consulting the parliament. The parliament should be supreme in every respect. Ministers have much to do but quite often they, overworked and overwhelmed with new responsibilities, are accepting the advice of people who perhaps are not even as a-, ah knowledgeable as they are on vital issues. And I think the important this is to get out democracy to function: is to for an enlightened electorate, the people to be educated to a greater extent, informed on all the issues of parliament, to look at our constitution, to look at our rules and to say: 'What can be done to alter these and to make a better parliament and to make it work more effectively for the people?' Andrew Moore: Well, Mr Luchetti, thank you very much on behalf of myself and the Parliamentary Bicentenary Project. A. S. (Anthony Sylvester) Luchetti: And thank you very much, Andrew. Event: End of Interview At time 00:27:32 Summary: End of session End of transcript