Book launch: Always Was, Always Will Be by Thomas Mayo

Rebecca Bateman: Good evening, everyone. Yama. I'm Rebecca Bateman. I'm the Director of Indigenous Engagement here at the National Library. I'm a Weilwan and Gamilaroi woman. Really honoured to invite Auntie Violet to come up and welcome us to country. 

Violet Sheridan: Thank you so much Yama. Hello everybody and good evening and welcome to the launch of Thomas Mayo's book. And I tell you what, I've read some it and I'll rub my hands, but I won't let any secrets away. But it is my pleasure to be here and welcome you to the land of the Ngunnawal people. And Thomas, welcome back. It's been a while since I've seen you, so. But, you know, I'm still hurting, really hurting from the outcomes of the last year. And it only took five minutes. I, alongside my grandson and Joe Wedger and other community people, and also Thomas and probably people in the room here that really campaigned hard to get the vote up and thought that Australia would support us with this year's vote. Because it wasn't like I used to say, it wasn't about us coming to take your backyard, it was about us telling the government and advising the government where they were going wrong over the years. At my next birthday, I'll be 70 and I don't wanna be 70, but we've been putting up so much, so long, we are resilient people. And Thomas's book explains it so well, "Always Was, Always Will Be". That Saturday night, the 14th of October, I was alongside my grandson, Noah and David Pocock, Andrew Barr and other members of the assembly and community people. And it only took five minutes to give us the outcome that the no vote got up. My grandson, Noah, I’ve seen him cry in the labour ward when he was born. I’ve seen my grandson cry as a toddler. But my 21-year-old grandson that Saturday night cried because Australia didn't vote us. Along with myself, I cried along with community people, we cried and probably other First Nations people and non-Indigenous people across Australia cried because they really thought Australia would support us with that to get us to have a voice. Because this gap. My eldest granddaughter is 27-year-old. She's just had another child. So when she's 70-year-old and her daughter's standing or grandson's standing beside her, will this gap, will Australia have a stand with us instead of letting us walk behind them? Because I feel that's what happened last year with that no vote. So my hope for the future, because I have 30 grandchildren, 24 grandchildren, 6 great grandchildren, and I'm not gonna last forever and keep fighting and keep fighting. My mother fought and I've seen other Aboriginal people fight. I’ve seen my people being trampled by horses that was ridden by policemen. I’ve seen my mother being knocked over when I was a little girl and rallies. And the reason why we have so many rights here now First Nations people, is because of our ancestors, because of our elders, because of our First Nations that fought for us so long. But you know what? We're still fighting for rights. We are, and my hope the future is that we all unite together and let us have a voice to represent ourselves and for us to go forward. And that First Nations people and non-Indigenous people walk together and support one another.  

So, and I thank Thomas for the hard work and the dedication since last year because I can still see the hurt in his eyes. And I know how much it meant to First Nations people that non-Indigenous people stand with us. But I have hope for the future. Hope because we have young people like Thomas and my grandson and Joe Weger, other young people and non-Indigenous people are still there to make sure that we do, that we unite together.  

So I wanna welcome you all here tonight. I'd like to pay my respects to my elders past, present and future and extend that respect to First Nations people here this evening. But I'd also like to acknowledge the non-Indigenous people. Thank you all so much for coming along and supporting Thomas with his book, with his launch. So in keeping in the general spirit of friendship and reconciliation, it gives me great pleasure once again to welcome you to the land of the Ngunnawal people and on behalf of my family and the other Ngunnawal families. I so welcome, welcome. Thank you so, so much, God bless. 

Rebecca Bateman: Thank you so much, Arnie Violet. You know, I feel it, you know, we all feel it looking at those photos, don't we? I think, you know, just what a big emotional journey we've all been on over the... Well, many, many, many years really. I think about my mom who was a member of the stolen generations and grew up in Cootamundra Aboriginal Girls Home down the road at Cootamundra. And I was just thinking about this lovely elderly gentleman who was a friend of hers at school, non-Indigenous man. She went to school down in town and to this day is such a support to me. My mum passed away a few years ago, but he's still there. And I remember after, you know, the outcome last year, I remember getting a message from him saying, "I'm so sorry. I tried my hardest." I'm like, "Don't apologise, you know, not you, you know." So yeah, really important.  

So wonderful to see so many people here tonight to support Thomas and his story. But without further ado, I would like to introduce Thomas. Thomas is a Kaurareg Aboriginal, Kalkalgal and Erubamle Torres Strait Islander man. He's a union official with the Maritime Union of Australia and was a leading advocate as we know in the campaign for the constitutional enshrined voice to parliament, sorry. Thomas is a signatory to the Uluru Statement from the Heart, but was also entrusted with the physical document. What an honour, but what a responsibility. Travelling around the country, visiting community, speaking with people about the movement towards the voice, treaty and truth. Thomas is the author of "Finding The Heart of the Nation," "Dear Son," "Finding the Heart," "Freedom Day" and with Kerry O'Brien, "The Voice Parliament Handbook." Tonight and with the release of his latest book, "Always Was, Always Will be," Thomas investigates what next for reconciliation and justice in Australia since the 2023 referendum result. Please join me in welcoming Thomas. 

Thomas Mayo: Thank you Rebecca for that very warm and heartfelt welcome and thank you Arnie Violet for welcoming us to country. I pay my respects to the Ngunnawal people and elders past and present. And I wanna thank you all for coming this evening to join me in launching this book here in Canberra and give yourselves a hand, we got it up in ACT. With this book and the opportunity to launch it around the country, one of the main things that I really wanted to do was take the chance to thank everybody that supported the campaign and that continue to walk with us. There was so much work done by so many Australians, it was around 70,000 volunteers that mobilised over 6 million Australians to vote yes. And as with anything that we do, storytelling is really important. And it's where I start this book.  

Before I go into one of the first stories that I share in the book is, I just wanna talk about how I dealt with the heartbreak after the referendum. It was not just the referendum campaign, but as mentioned, I was entrusted with the Uluru Statement from the Heart and had worked fortunately with the support of my union, the Maritime Union of Australia, for, in total just over six years full-time, creating the movement with others to have the opportunity for a referendum in the first place. And I think it's something that should never be forgotten, just how many decades of work, you know, beyond me ever coming onto the scene, was done towards the opportunity for constitutional recognition. The work that was done, the advocacy by our elders around constitutional recognition, but also to try and find a proposition that could work across the spectrum of politics. Noel Pearson is mentioned in this book, and he was one person that I know did a lot of walking the halls, I suppose, and knocking on doors and speaking to conservatives, the very conservatives that ended up going against this. What happened last year, you know, that was all part of what we did to get there and trying to ensure that we would have success. So that should never be forgotten.  

When the referendum outcome was announced, that very short time, I was in Sydney is where I ended up on that day, on the 14th of October that night. And it was extremely difficult. All of the media was there and as the results came in, I had the unenviable task of saying a few words to the crowd that had gathered there, the supporters in front of all those cameras. And as I was up there only... I think for only around 5 to 10 minutes, in that period, the result was known. And it was hard to resist being bitter and angry. And at the same time, I remember thinking when I spoke to the cameras, I'm not bound anymore to trying to avoid the sensationalism in the media that would make me sound like I'm saying that every Australian is racist, as we saw multiple times the misconstrued comments of our leaders. And I did say that I hope that... I believe that history will record the truth of what has happened and it won't be kind on those that with the full knowledge that this would not take anyone's backyard, Auntie Violet mentioned, confused Australians and fear among it. Soon after the referendum, I went home.  

I stayed at Koji Bay Hotel for a week first. Because my wife and I had had a discussion and we agreed that whatever the outcome, I should write something. And, you know, I promised the Saturday Paper that I'd write an article and we had the week of silence. So I got working through that week of silence. And it was a blessing, not just because, you know, it was a good opportunity to walk away from the media and all of that noise and let Australia sort of stew in its decision, but it was an opportunity to do that writing and thinking. And I thought where better then by the sea where I can jump into cold salt water and get rid of any writer's block.  

And I wrote that article and went home. And the first thing that I did after, you know, being embraced by my family and feeling like a hero coming home despite the result was I went fishing, took my family fishing, and I talk about it in here, but I knew I was missed because I'd only been home 25 days from the beginning of the year to the end of October. And even my older kids found my dad jokes funny again. So I knew I was missed. And this first story comes from, you know, I guess a bit of the healing process, not just the writing was a healing process for me, but this was too.  

"In late December, 2023, for the first time that year, I was with my family on the saltwater in my small dinghy. We were making numus from the fish we'd caught over the side. We were floating on Tiwi Country, on the border of Larrakia land. On a build-up day like this, there's barely a whisper of wind. In the languages of the Torres Strait Islands, we call the sea's surface muthuru when it lies still as it did that day, reflecting the sky like a mirror. While the scene is beautiful, in reality it is oppressively hot. Clouds give no relief from the heat of the sun, nor does a small canvas canopy on the boat. The humidity makes the air feel like hot soup. Yet for all the uncomfortable heat, this is where I had longed to be as I travelled the country, working on the protracted and intense Voice to Parliament referendum campaign.  

Earlier that morning, my heart had swelled with pride as I watched my ten-year-old daughter Ruby hauling in a bunch of golden snappers. She's hardworking, a busy bee who grew up so tall and lanky over the months when I was away. I noticed the chagrin of her 12-year-old brother, Will, who for all his bravado before the trip, had barely caught a fish. A proper little Torres Strait Islander girl, Ruby, shares my taste. She loves all things spicy and savoury and anything from the sea, and enjoys cooking, as I do. I asked her as I wrote this, 'What was your favourite part of fishing the other day?' The first thing she said was, 'when we made the numus.' Numus is raw fish and onion sliced thinly with chopped birds eye chilies and a dash of soy sauce. In a container in the esky, it cooks in the acidity of the other two ingredients, lemon juice and vinegar. In that fishing spot, we always catch the best fish for the dish. A firm white-fleshed fish called trevally. The numus is never better than when it is made fresh and eaten icy cold in the sweaty heat, accompanied by the scent of the salt air with family."  

And that is really how I spent the last couple of months of the year when I finally settled down at home. And I think it was in November when I decided I needed to write this book. I was sitting on the veranda with my wife and we were talking about things and I'd already been asked many times, what's next? And I understood it would be a difficult question to answer for us. One of the reasons I was so passionate about establishing a voice is because I understood it would be the structure from which we could have our debates and discussions and reach regular consensus on what we would say to people when they ask that question. And in the absence of the voice, I knew that people would be looking for that guidance as was asked of me. So I decided, okay, it's time to start writing again.  

And I decided to write this book. I knew that "The Voice of Parliament Handbook" had been so successful that Kerry O'Brien and I wrote and earlier this year it won Book of the Year and Social Impact Book of the Year and Non-Fiction Book of the Year, which was bittersweet at first to hear it was shortlisted. But by the time the awards came and Kerry said, you know, "You really should go," I saw it as an act of defiance to go and celebrate what we did because I knew that it had made such an impact.  

So in that last couple of months of the year, I think every day I sort of said to myself, “I should be writing” and I didn't write. And then in January I started on this book and got going. It was intense, you know, I got stuck into it because I was going back to work with the union at the end of February. So I switched on and got stuck into the writing. In the writing, I revisited some thinking about, and as part of the introduction, about my own upbringing. And I'd written about it before before in my book, "Dear Son: Letters and Reflections from First Nations Fathers and Sons," which I'm proud to let you know that it's gonna be made into live theatre in the Brisbane Theatre Company and Odeon Theatre Company. Yeah. So I'm really excited about that. I can't wait. I think it'll be coming out in July next year. But I wrote this part that I'll share with you as well. Sorry.  

"When I was a boy, I loved going to that same fishing spot with my father. It's a special place to me because, in a dinghy at sea, fishing and hunting, my father treated me differently from how he did at home. On land, he was much harsher. My dad, Celestino Mayo was part of a generation of Torres Strait Islander men who left their island home for the mainland to work. The first who could freely do so without interference from a white protector who could control every aspect of their lives. Dad was 17 when he left Waiben on Kaurareg Country, otherwise known as Thursday Island. Those island men were famously hardworking. On 8 May, 1968, a crew made up of largely of Torres Strait Islanders broke the world record for laying the greatest length of railway track in one day. Talk about heat and harsh conditions. They achieved that feat in the Pilbara, between Port Hedland and Mt Newman. Many of those men settled in mainland towns to raise their own families, as did my dad, while still sending money back home on the islands.  

I've strived to give my children the best things that my dad gave me, love, protection and a good example. I have consciously walked where he shone a light rather than in his shadow. I have learned from his mistakes and made my own. And I want my kids to learn from both of us, the good and the bad. What I perceived as my father's flaws were as much about him preparing me for a world that did not love him. He rarely told me that he loved me, believing that he needed to harden me up. He rarely told me he wanted me to be a man among men, no softness allowed. Whereas I hold my kids close as often as they will let me. I tell them I love them every day. Out there, in present-day Australia, sadly it feels as Noel Pearson described in his 2022 Boyer Lectures: Pearson said, 'We are a much unloved people. We are perhaps the ethnic group Australians feel least connected to. We are not popular and we are not personally known to many Australians. Few have met us and a small minority count us as friends and despite never having met any of us and knowing very little about us other than what is in the media and what WEH Stanner, whose 1968 Boyer Lectures looms large over my lectures, called folklore about us. Australians hold and express strong views about us, the great proportion of which is negative and unfriendly. It has ever been thus. Worse in the past, but still true today.' Pearson is observing in that part there that the majority of Australians, their unfamiliarity with First Peoples. And when we do not know someone, we are easily misled to think the worst of them. Indeed being much unloved is a hindrance to progress."  

This is one of the things that I write about in the book this unfamiliarity and how it was something that, you know, allowed the, or helped the lies to penetrate people's minds, I think. And what I mentioned there is, you know, it's just, it's so much easier to believe a malicious rumour about a stranger than it is a friend. And unfortunately, Pearson was right about what would be that great challenge.  

The first chapter of this book though is about hope, not about an analysis of what happened and why people would vote no. And I thought it was important to start there because, I mean, collectively so many of us were so devastated about what happened. And I'd write about hope as something that is contagious. I write about it as energy. And I've gotta say it was difficult to write about hope. Not because I was feeling hopeless, but because I thought I don't read self-help books. And I was worried about being cliche. It was actually Laura Tingle who gave me great advice when I was having a chat with her. I was saying how, you know, some of this stuff, this self-help stuff seems so obvious, you know? And she said, "Well, if you speak what is obvious, you know, with strength, then, you know, it's still gonna..." Something along those lines. She was much more articulate than me. And so I wrote about hope as energy and I write about where I get my energy from, you know, of course my kids and my family and my community. But hopelessness is also contagious. And it's one of the reasons I had to start with hope. You know, I wanna dust you all off, you know, and pick you up and get you ready for what's next. And so I'll just read this little section too. Hope. This is just a part of the first chapter hope.  

"When we have hope we can heal, as exercise awakens lost muscle. Hope is how we learn. If we don't take action, if we never try, we won't know how to lose, and then we'll never understand how we can win. Think about the struggle we've had towards justice for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people thus far. From 100% of the population to near annihilation, where are we today? Today, Indigenous groups have native title and land rights covering large swathes of the nation. Traditional owners have been able to use their rights to negotiate outcomes that will protect our country, and by negotiating ongoing benefits through Indigenous land use agreements. From an impressive all-Aboriginal cricket team in the late 19th century, to Lionel Rose, Evonne Goolagong, Michael Long, Cathy Freeman, Andrew McLeod, Patrick Mills, big Artie Beetson, and so many others in sport. To Archie Roach, Yothu Yindi, Troy Cassar-Daley, Christine Anu, Emma Donovan, Dan Saltan, Briggs, Barkaa, and the King Stingray band in music, the list goes on in a cascade of stars across our southern sky. We have seen an ever-expanding diversity of Indigenous academics and scholars. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are practising law and becoming silks and judges, running lucrative businesses, leading their unions, writing and illustrating books, and winning elections to represent us in parliament. When I was a child, I don't think there were any Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander doctors, but as of 2021, according to reports from the Indigenous-led Indigenous Doctors' Association, there were 519.  

Each of these achievers across all the areas they excel in have overcome prejudice and racism to become who they are, and each of them inspires hope for the next generation. When our elders first sought a right to vote, we were told no. When we first demanded equal wages, the answer was no. When we first marched and litigated for land rights and native title, they said no. In 2023, when we called for a voice in the constitution, we received that familiar response, no. Why do we have hope? Because every time we were told no, we took action with non-Indigenous allies. We got that fire in our bellies. And here we are now, on the field winning games, in the boardrooms leading change, in the concert halls feeling seats to capacity, in the university's lecturing, and in the parliaments representing all Australians. We are here to say, and we say no, does not mean no to progress. We always were and always will be for yes.  

Compared to 50 years ago, we have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go. The statistics, the reality on the ground in many Indigenous communities, in the prison cells and on the hospital beds are a crying shame. Our gains are under attack. If you are walking with us, we must find our energy and give hope to others. If you are First Nations, continue to be loud and proud, fight for your rights with the commitment and determination of your ancestors.  

Why have I written this book? The answer begins with the love of my family, community, and fellow Australians. Why are you reading this book? The answer is that you care. Together, we have hope."  

Thank you. So, thank you. The first... Am I running out of time? No. Okay. The first part of the book is hope. There's two chapters and that was the end of the first one. The second chapter is, What about the Uluru Statement now? and that's a question that's asked. And I tell this little story about how in the doldrums after the referendum, I was reflecting on the hundreds or thousands of times that I'd recited the statement over the years. And I thought I would never recite it again. I was asked, I was gonna do a speech in January and I was asked in the briefing if I would recite the statement for the conference. And I said no. And then I thought about it some more and I said yes. And I said yes because I thought the Uluru Statement from the Heart remains one of the most beautiful and powerful pieces of writing that this country has ever seen produced here on our country. And it is no less truthful about the past and the present. It is no less logical in what it proposes, and it is no less our hopes for the future. And so I recited it and I felt so strong and defiant in that moment and it was part of my healing process since the referendum.  

The middle section of the book is history, and it's not history as a dry academic sort of review of history. It is just taking the lessons that I believe that we needed, those important parts of history to help us understand where we're going and how we get there. It's in four chapters. It's pre-colonization to the first fleet, the first fleet to 1901, the becoming Australia, the Federation, 1901 to 2013, and then 2013 to the present date. And throughout it, I challenge our misconceptions about things. Some things that even some readers might hold.  

And I'll take this opportunity to talk about who the audience I hope to be for this book is. It's not written just for supporters and people that voted yes, it's written for people that voted no as well. And I hope that you will put this book into the hands of your friends and family that voted no. And the reason I say that is because I don't believe that a majority of the people that voted no did so with any malice in their hearts. I think they voted no because of the very effective tactics of the no campaign and their dishonesty and their bastardry. They were led to be confused and to fear that they would personally lose something if we voted yes. And so I think we should continue that conversation with those people and I hope that this book will be something that will help. I'll read this part here just to give an example of how I challenge the way that people think about things.  

"My good friends from Gurindji Country in the Northern Territory can attest to the deprivations of slavery in Australia." And subheading for this part is Yes, they were slaves. "When white people first arrived on their country in 1879 looking for profitable land, relations were friendly. But the settlers insidious intent was hidden until they returned five years later with their herds of cattle. The Gurindji and Aboriginal people from nearby First Nations were forced into slave labour on cattle stations like Wave Hill. As the Aboriginal people were reeling from massacres, introduced to diseases and dispossession, without the same access to hunting grounds or safe water access, they were easily bonded to work for meagre rations, some flour, tobacco, sugar, tea, and beef bones. At one stage, the Vesteys, who owned Wave Hill Station, became concerned that their Aboriginal labour supply was dwindling. They commissioned two anthropologists, Ronald and Catherine Brent, to advise on how their workers' fertility could be improved. The anthropologists found atrocious conditions. Mothers and babies were dying during birth, and they witnessed a Gurindji woman's arrival at hospital carrying a long dead foetus in her womb. Despite the obvious recommendations that conditions should be improved if they wanted to maintain their slave labour, the company resisted.” I write more about the history of the Gurindji and the protest against slavery, the Wave Hill Walk-Off, later in this chapter.  

“In Australia, the word slavery generally isn't used and many people pretend it never happened here. Other words are used instead, but their meaning is the same. We say blackbirding, which was when Aboriginal people and South Sea Islanders were kidnapped and forced to work. Indentured workers referring to the contracts that bound them, domestics, which were mostly women and children under state protection or training who were forced into service for white masters and working for rations as been mentioned earlier. We haven't really admitted that this nation benefited from Indigenous people's unpaid labour, which continued around the country until late last century. Two recent prime ministers, Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison have actively denied or downplayed the reality that so many First Nations people worked as slaves.  

Consider this, if you are paid in scant food rations or very low wages and you're expected to put in long arduous hours of work each day, if your movements are controlled by your employer and you have no right to take leave even if you are sick, and if you do not have the energy or the time for recreational cultural ceremonies, does it not follow that you are a slave? Now imagine this too, if the only way you may stay or return to your homeland and family is to work for the person who has stolen your land and beaten you into subjugation, if there are strict penalties if you obey or abscond or absconded from your employer, are you a worker or are you a slave? These were the terms of employment for many Indigenous people up until as late as the 1970s.  

Some Australians are wealthy as a direct benefit of the history of stolen land and enslaved Indigenous people. Yet the attitude of too many is that there is no need for recognition or recompense. Reparation should not be a dirty word, instead we should expect that Indigenous people would receive the compensation they're entitled to from a civilised Australia, a nation that believes in a fair go.  

One of the common reasons given for the inequities between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians, and I heard it often during the referendum campaign, and I still often hear it today, is that Aboriginal people are lazy. They are bludgers who want sit down money instead of getting a job. Oh, the irony. When Aboriginal people became entitled to equal wages with the support of the union movement from 1971, the employer sacked and evicted these people from the land they had stolen, evicted them from their pastoral stations. The Aboriginal people were forced onto welfare camps or to live on the outskirts of towns in conditions of dire poverty. In many cases, the elders loved the work they were doing, but they were discarded like lame beasts instead of being paid a reasonable wage.  

Indigenous people no longer had land, few white people would employ us on equal wages, our youth were not trained and not wanted in the towns and cities, and so what followed was a dependence on welfare. White opportunists then brought their toxic business of selling alcohol into Aboriginal communities. They made their fortunes on rivers of grog and clouds of hopelessness because what do people do when they have no property, when they have little self-esteem, and when they're forlorn with bucket loads of trauma? They drink. What follows the drink? Violence and antisocial behaviour. What follows generations of violence and antisocial behaviour? More children are taken by the authorities and put into abusive situations, and we get more trauma. The stereotypes against us are strengthened. The racism, even if not blatant, is reinforced. And around we go again. This is more than an issue about racism based on the colour of our skin. Have you heard statements such as this: 'There's those lazy blacks on the grog. They should get off their arse and get themselves a job.'  

In any family group of people who have lived through this cycle, some will work their way out of poverty. But the fact is we are all wired differently. Often people are so detrimentally affected, they can't overcome the poverty and pain. Not without long-term, well-resourced programs and policies, or in other words, a consistent act of care from the rest of us."  

This is an attempt in this book to try and, you know, get people to think more deeply about these things. And I think it's especially pertinent right now as we see a change of government in the Northern Territory and the country liberal party talking about reducing the age of criminality from 12 to 10, as if we haven't learned by now that tough on crime policies don't work. I did a radio interview the other day in Adelaide and I was asked, you know, "Well, labour weren't tough on crime and doesn't that mean that the CLP should do something different?" Well, actually labour were tough on crime in the Northern Territory and that's because voters don't understand the reasons for youth crime, which is described in this and also in the history that covers the massive budget cuts of the Abbott government in, I think it was 2014, and the Northern Territory intervention and the effect that had on families and their babies that are now young adults and disaffected. So I really hope that this book will help give you the tools. I guess I'm running outta time. No. Okay. Sorry.  

So familiarity. I wanna go back there. Familiarity is so important. And in this book there is a list of actions that we can do and that is one of them. This book, I hope, is a resource for you and your friends and other supporters to help them find ways to be active and to make a difference. And the simple act of introducing your friends and your loved ones to the truth about Indigenous culture is gonna make a difference. And I talked about why earlier because it's easier to believe a vicious rumour about a stranger than a friend. So we've gotta protect people from those lies that they will continue to hear.  

There's also a section where I actually list lies that people will continue to hear, much like in "The Voice to Parliament Handbook," the frequently asked questions, and you know, give people ways to respond to those misconceptions and lies. And I offer a formula in the book and in the final chapter I talked about,. I started to write that I don't know what the formula for justice and recognition is for First Nations people. And then I thought to myself, actually I do, it's quite simple, much the way that, you know, we shouldn't be locking up kids at 10 years old. It takes a consistent act of care and it takes the resources, it takes our community getting around us, our fellow Australians. And so the formula that I came up with is people power. So the things that we do as individuals, the types of things that led to us having the opportunity to structurally reform this nation so that Indigenous people were guaranteed a voice. Combined with organisations acting. You know, which is often a result of our people power in itself. Combined with good government policies. Policies that ensure that our Indigenous communities are listened to before decisions are made, policies that give us a voice, policies of self-determination. Multiplied by consistency.  

And we've had those first three things from time to time, but we've never had them consistently. And so we need to be active to use the tools that I give in this book, to continue to have conversations as if we're still in a referendum campaign and we need to see that consistently delivered and that's how we achieve justice and recognition. And I go on to list all those things under each section that you can do. So with that, I would love to have some Q and A to hear from you. Thank you for listening. 

Rebecca Bateman: Thank you. Thank you so much, Thomas. We'll throw over to Q and A. I'll just ask you for the benefit of people who are making use of our hearing loop. If you've got a question, if you could just pop your hand up and we'll get a microphone to you. Thank you. 

Thomas Mayo: If nobody wants to ask a question, I'm gonna read another piece. 

Audience member 1: You mentioned the no campaign, the bastardry of the no campaign. Leaving aside the critical question of bipartisanship and referendums and with the benefit of hindsight, what would you have done differently to counter some of the tactics of the no campaign, like their intellectually vacuous slogan, if you don't know, vote no? Where's the detail and having spearheading their campaign, the very effective senators, Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine, what would you have done differently to counter some of those tactics? 

Thomas Mayo: It's a very good question. There is always in a campaign, there are things that you could have done better and you can never really know, you know, where politics, you know, these types of things are gonna land. Of course there was a question of whether or not we could achieve this with bipartisanship or not and there were various opinions from experts. I think it's all fair game about, you know, if the yes campaign should have done this or that better, or if Albo should have done something differently, if the government should have done something differently, if we should have waited for better economic times, you know, were there wasn't a cost of living crisis, if we should have delayed the referendum or not. And some of the advice about delaying the referendum was the stars might not align again for many, many decades. And we had to make a decision.  

The main thing I think that sunk the referendum was that loss of bipartisanship because we are a two party system basically. And there are people that follow the parties that they're loyal to, regardless of, you know, what they think. And we know, and I've seen the analysis that there must have been a lot of conservatives coalition voters that were gonna vote yes, because in 2017, it was around 49% support in the Australian public. By about 2019 because of the work that many of us were doing around the place, including people in this room, we'd reached about 60% support and that 60% was consistent until late 2022 when the Nationals announced that they would oppose the referendum. And then it flipped that next little bit when Peter Dutton announced opposition to it, and then it was 60% against. And that was then consistent until just the week before the referendum. And we started to close some ground, but it was too late.  

And so while I believe that it's all fair game about what we could have done better, what we could have done differently, I think the reason that we lost was because Peter Dutton chose to make a political opportunity out of it, rather than what was in the best interest of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and this nation. 

Audience member 2: Right. Thanks, Thomas. One question and one request. The question was, I voted at Old Parliament House, I walked up the steps and looked across at the Tent Embassy at the sign, ‘the Tent Embassy says no’. And I thought that that was it. The division just was a free kick to the opposition. I wondered how you thought that could be a, that unity could be achieved in the future. The second one was a request. Last year, I got to hear you recite the Uluru Statement from the Heart at the museum. I think it's one of the most beautiful pieces of writing I've ever heard. And I was hoping that before we leave today, we might just hear it again. 

Thomas Mayo: Thank you. I'd be happy to do that if there's time. On the Tent Embassy. I mean, it's always sad when, you know, your fellow people in whatever group you're in, you know, you get that division, but it's normal, right? And you've probably heard me say this through the referendum campaign, we're never gonna be 100% support for anything as Indigenous people. I hadn't thought about this before, but ACT still voted yes. So it's one of the sad things about the influence, I suppose of the Tent Embassy. And it's one of the reasons why I believe it's time to take it from being on the grass to, you know, unavoidably being heard in the centre of decision making.  

I think for our allies, and I talk about this in the book actually, the main thing is, is that we use critical thinking about what Indigenous leaders say, including myself, just like any other person that we're listening to. And that we find the evidence that we require to make up our mind and we make a decision and we get behind movements, okay? And we get behind justice and recognition for Indigenous people. That could be about raising the age. It could be about deaths in custody. It could be about any of so many campaigns that Indigenous people are leading, but make a decision and get behind us. That's what I'd say to that. Thank you. 

Audience member 3: Thomas, can I just simply start by thanking you for your extraordinary leadership? I think for a man who's dedicated so many years of his life and being away from his family, to be able to firstly write this and then do a tour of the country speaking the way you have, I think illustrates a level of leadership that everybody can learn from because it combines commitment with humility and principle. And those things are sadly rare. So with that in mind, rather than looking back and trying to analyse what's happened, I know your book is about going forward. You and I spend some time in the big house on the hill from time to time.  

And the question in my heart is how I look in the eye of the people who led that no campaign or supported it, either assively by silence or actively, and how we engage with those people to try and go forward? Because I think the approach that you take has a prospect of bringing forward. I can't bring myself to face and front those people because of the anger I have and I have so little right for anger compared to Australia's first people. So I guess I'm looking to draw upon your heart and your leadership for guidance as to how I can take that forward and the people that work with can take that forward. 

Thomas Mayo: I think it's completely fine for us to be angry at what those people did. I made a conscious decision not to express anger in this book and not to talk about them by name because I know that there's always gonna be people like that. I call it bad actors in my book, they're always gonna be there. And I think it's incumbent on us, us people that have empathy and a sense of solidarity and care to point out... To use our motivation, our anger, if that's the motivation, to put our arm around others rather than waste our time being angry at them and not doing anything useful. We really... Because the greatest thing that they care about politicians is, you know, getting elected.  

We've got to resist the polarisation that they promote those bad actors. And there is a real... You know, you can see that strategy playing out across social media, all the things they've done during the referendum campaign and will continue to do. We've gotta resist that polarisation and we've gotta learn to be able to convince our friends and family and loved ones and our colleagues to have a more open mind about things. And I talk about how we can do that 'cause it's not something that we all know how to do. And I think we're not a referendum campaign where we've got, you know, a certain date to work to.  

So I think part of it is having patience with each other. Part of it is listening so that we can understand what misconceptions they hold or biases and then we can present them with the right information, the facts that they need, the evidence. And then if the conversation is getting heated, we need to understand to walk away, but revisit it, okay? And just continue to work on it. And I've seen that work so many times, you know, throughout the years that we campaigned. Revisit it and you know, keep working on bringing each other along with us. I think that's the most powerful thing that we can do.  

I also ask people to be political. We can't avoid politics. Politics is in everything including, you know, deciding not to be political. So I think we've gotta get better at that. Let's be more political. Let's have those conversations at the kitchen table as difficult and as uncomfortable as we feel. We've just gotta get better at that as Australians. Thanks. 

Audience member 4: Thomas, I was astonished and disappointed when I had a visit from an old friend last week who is a politically astute person, long time associations and worker for unions. And she apropos of nothing opened up. Oh, that's right, I had my yes T-shirt on and she said to me, you know, "Your friend Francis..." Who's no longer with us, an Indigenous woman, "Voted no." And I'd spoken to Francis about this and I knew, and I knew what her reasons were, but then my friend, my politically astute friend just completely floored me by coming up with that furphy. That was the... There was not enough detail. I mean, really. And when I went to the Kristy McBain, the Eden-Monaro in Queanbeyan, right? That thing, and Kristy McBain was really clear about a constitution being a framework document. And she explained that by through the tax clause. But that belief is still fueling negativity in the community. How do we deal with that? 

Thomas MayO; So there might be some underlying sort of long held, entrenched prejudices that are held and people just found any excuse they could find to say no. And that's sad, you know, and especially with the older generation that haven't had that education like younger people do today. You know, sometimes they just can't get over that. And they might also be looking at people that they trust who are saying that as well and the people around them. So, you know, it becomes that echo of chamber and you just weren't, I guess, able to break her out of that.  

I do say in here that people that you cannot move don't continue to spend your energy on them, okay? It's something that eventually, you know, like it takes a bit of time, but you learn when not to waste your time with someone. And if someone is offensive, you know, and you sense that your safety or your mental health is at stake, then, you know, we do need to walk away from those people as far as trying to convince them and move on to other people that we can.  

I do believe that we will achieve what we tried to do last year. And this goes to your question as well. We will achieve it and I'll give you the reasons why. Firstly because of what I talked about in that extract, that every time we've been told no, we've eventually achieved yes 'cause we don't give up. We're resilient as Auntie Violet said. Secondly, because Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people absolutely voted yes. That's unequivocal now. There's this great map that I saw with an analysis of bigger circles for higher populations of Indigenous people, ballot by ballot, ballot box by ballot box and smaller circles for lower populations. Darker blue for yes and darker brown for no. Just one glance at it could tell you that our people absolutely voted yes. And the last thing is the youth, you know, young Australians voted yes. Generation Z voted yes. They have that different education. They don't have that entrenched prejudice against us. So I can tell you with absolute certainty that we will achieve yes to constitutional recognition one day and we're on the right side of history.  

The other two things I'll say about that is a couple of things that I ask people to do. I want you to record what you experienced. We here, we are gonna write what happened last year. We're gonna write that history, okay? We're not gonna wait for anyone else to do it. And you can record it in any way you can. And even if you think no one's ever gonna read it, I want you to record what you witnessed and what you felt, the good things, the friendships that you made, the wonderful things that you saw, the relationships and you know, moving people from no to yes. Those things that you did. But also the sad things, the racism that you witnessed or experienced. I want us to record those things. And the reason is not only just us writing history, but when our kids do have their turn and they will, as I said, we're gonna be there for them to learn from and they'll do it.  

The other thing is the yes T-shirt, it started a conversation. I wore my yes T-shirt again since the referendum. Once I'd recovered sufficiently. I remember, you know, soon after the referendum, it just crushed my heart even more when I saw a yes sticker or a shirt or a placard still on a fence. And then after the things that I talked about, you know, the, you know, lifting myself up again, I started to feel proud, you know, I was like, yes, thank you for wearing that. Thank you for defying them, you know? So like I said, continue to use that paraphernalia, keep it on your fence. If you've taken it down, put something else up that acknowledges country and be loud and proud in your support. Thank you. 

Audience member 5: Thanks, Mr. Mayo. I don't wanna be your wet blanket on this, but I just wanna say- 

Thomas Mayo: There's always someone. 

Audience member 5: Look at that objective that you've put forward, justice and recognition as if the two terms are equally important, which theoretically they are. But with the recognition side, I think we have to really take on board what Noel Pearson said about the deep set attitudes in Australia. The unloved aspect about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's lives in Australia. So the recognition can be very hard. And we don't wanna be too naive about the difficulties there. But what comes perhaps before the recognition, I'm just saying maybe look at the two words a little bit separately, what perhaps becomes before the recognition to some extent is the justice side. So there are many issues of justice staring us in the face in Australia. You take housing on homelands and our stations in the Northern Territory, enormous justice issue. I can't quite see how we get to the recognition until we re-confront some of those justice issues as well. 

Thomas Mayo: Yeah, I think they're linked. You can't separate the two. So, yeah, I don't know what else I can say to that. I think justice is recognition. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what else to say to that. I mean, if... Yes, thanks. Sorry if I didn't understand your question properly. 

Audience member 5: That's fine. I think that answer's quite okay. 

Thomas: Yeah. 

Audience member 5: I just wanted to, just instead having one like three word program. So just take apart the two words a bit and look at their distinctive roles and 

Thomas Mayo: Okay, thanks. Laura. 

Audience member 6: Just going to what you were talking about before, when it comes to familiarity, I, as you know, I was fortunate enough to grow up in the Northern Territory. So even as somebody that's non-Indigenous, I've always, I recognise now what a privilege it was to grow up around people that were so willing to share with me their culture, their experiences, and their lives. And its Indigenous issues are not something that is necessarily foreign to me. And moving here to Canberra, I have found that, you know, obviously it's a progressive place. Everybody voted yes here. But I do feel that I've met now for the first time people that may never have met a First Nations person before, or they might... Sometimes they feel a bit more, there's that lack of familiarity, which I think I have noticed. And I noticed during the referendum, it led to some people not getting as involved as they might've because they did witness, you know, some people that weren't Indigenous saying no. And they kind of... I think that sometimes there's this expectation from non-Indigenous Australians that they all need to agree. So we know what we need to do and then we can get behind it. I guess like in. And obviously as well, the conservatives sort of certainly amplified some voices as we know that, you know, for those purposes. So yeah, I guess how would you sort of encourage non-Indigenous Australians to take a more active thought process and approach and feel more confident sort of engaging in those discussions in the future when they feel like they're not sure, they're so worried about maybe saying the wrong thing or something. 

Thomas Mayo: Yeah, thanks. I think we, I mean the best way to do that is for us to become educated on it so that we can be confident in what we're saying, you know? You know, you can't really convince people unless you know what you're talking about. It's much harder, people can tell in your body language and your voice. So, you know, that's why I. Part of the reason why I've made this book, because I wanna help you do it. I learned early in the campaign for the Uluru Statement many years ago that I couldn't take it for granted that other people know how to advocate for anything, let alone Indigenous affairs, which they knew very little about. So yeah, I'm hoping that resources like this will help. There's a whole chapter on ways to become familiar and there's a list of documentaries and movies and books and all sorts of things in the back pages as well. Yeah. 

Audience member 7: Thanks for being here. It's really important. It's part of our grieving, I think, to have you and other leaders with us. I just wanna make a comment. When we were door knocking in Queanbeyan, the doors we really felt comfortable knocking on were the ones with the Indian, you know, we knew there were gonna be Indian people living there. And in fact, what's happened afterwards is lots more conversations about the racism towards any people of colour in Australia. And so it's such a shame that we're not allowed to say the racism word. It's so banned because it was an opportunity for people, I think, to talk about their experience beyond, you know, the experience of First Nations people. And I wonder if you had any comments about that. And I had another quick one to throw in, which is about the truth telling process that's going on currently in Victoria, and yet we hear nothing of it. And I wondered if you had any thoughts about that. 

Thomas Mayo: Yeah, thank you for that question. I mean, there is a very effective movement of bullying and intimidation that we saw used very effectively in the referendum campaign. And you see pile-ons onto people, you know, not just on social media, but in the media as well. We saw Marcia Langton's words misconstrued and twisted into, I think over a week of media, you know, saying that she was calling all Australians racist. Actually with the publication of this book, there was an article from a tabloid that, you know, was headlined in a way that made it sound like I was saying that too. So with all of that, geez, it's hard for any of us that experience racism to really speak up about it. I think the way that, I think more of us do need to though, you know? And I think that's how we can defy it and see change. But we need a lot more Australians calling it out as well and calling out these media outlets that do that. It comes to a problem with our media as well, obviously. Media ownership is something that we should be questioning in this country because it's certainly skewing our democracy in a scary direction. And we can see that from the United States where that can lead. 

Audience member 8: Let me tell Thomas, Racism isn't that... It's not put out I use it all the time. Just seeing it all the time. I don't think we have to buy what we're told to think and feel, I think we have to be educated 

Thomas Mayo: Yeah, I think you're right. And in this book I do give some guidance for people to call out racism. So there's some, you know, there are ways to call out racism in a proper way. Yeah. Okay. 

Audience member 9: Well, thank you so much. I just started reading your book and when I read one of the forward names, she was from Hands on Heart and I was one of the organisers and I quickly took a photo and I sent it to our group and I was like, "This is so powerful to have like youth leadership as well, front and centre." And I just wanna say something before I ask the question. Recently I represented Hands on Heart in Fiji and it was a collective of Indigenous young leaders from all across the region. And I got to talk about the referendum and I wore my shirts and they were like, "What's the Uluru Statement?" I was like, "Well, this is what it was. This is the invitation, this is what happened." And, but importantly, young people and First Nations people, overwhelmingly we voted yes. And I got to read out the Uluru Statement for the first time since, and like, I almost broke down crying 'cause it's so powerful and beautiful. And I think I would love to know. It would be in your book and I will read it more, but what is like the one thing that you'd like us as young people to like start doing immediately in terms of collective action or mobilising or engaging? Like what's the thing, if we could do something, what would you like us to do? 

 Thomas Mayo: Yeah, I want you just to be, you know, I think louder in support of Indigenous justice and recognition. And I think it's important that you guys fight against the disinformation as well in the creative ways that you can. You guys understand social media. Actually, I'm surprised, you know, like, I shouldn't be surprised, but I think young people understand how to critically think about what they see on social media better than older Australians, you know. I was at a Jessie Street lunch fundraiser in Sydney the other day, and Julia, the e-commissioner was talking about this really sad story of a boy that, you know, the extortion that happens. And the coroner found it was four hours from the start to the finish of you know, he ended up taking his own life. Incredibly sad. And I was seeing my son that day 'cause he goes to school in Sydney and I just wanted to talk to him about it. And he told me, "Dad, we are learning about this stuff. We know this."  

But I think there's a campaign to, again, to drag our boys further to the right, you know, to this extreme view that it's somehow unfair on boys and men that women have rights. And I see it, this subtle messaging in the things that my son watches on YouTube. You know, for example, we've gotta be talking to our boys. So I think young people know better than older people on this stuff, but we need to continue to talk with each other about it and keep that solid line so that we achieve this change eventually and we build a better country. Thank you. 

Audience member 10: Good day, Thomas. Look, firstly, thank you for your service. I'm a Aboriginal man on from Darling Downs mob. And, you know, thank you again for your service to the community. It's really appreciated. I've got a couple of things I'd like to say. I do live in Queanbeyan and I door knocked in Queanbeyan, and I have a very contrary view to my experience toward what the other person said. And that is, growing up as an Aboriginal person, I always found some of the worst stereotypes and racism came from early migrants to Australia that they're trying to fit in. They wanna be like the other Aussies. And that's got nothing to do with the colour of their skin, what part of the world they came from, they all sort of had the same views.  

Yeah, but what I actually wanted to say, and I'm hoping there's a question in here somewhere, is that at work recently, like what struck me, a person said, I was talking about the referendum and they said, "You know, if you hadn't mentioned that, I completely forgot we had that." And that's the point. That's where, because it didn't matter to them, a lot of people that voted no, it's not an issue that affected them. They're not, you know, one way or the other. And I think a lot of the losses were also in that, that sort of ambivalence that people have. 

Thomas Mayo: Yeah. 

Audience member 10: I'm hoping that- Yeah, thoughts on that. 

Thomas Mayo: No, thanks for that. I think the last part of what you're saying is sadly true. You know, the apathy is something else we need to overcome. And I think it's somewhat addressed when we talk about hope. You know, I mean hope can be directed at the wrong things as well, you know, and so I think we need to be aware of that. The first part of your statement there. I think we're all susceptible to disinformation, you know, and that's what we need to be conscious of. We're all susceptible to that because of the various struggles in our lives, because of the apathy that we might have, because of the hopelessness that we might have or because the driving factor is we just wanna fit in and it's the people around us that are influencing us. It's important that we have those things in mind as we get out there and continue to move people in the right direction. Thanks. 

Audience member 11: Hello, Thomas, brother. I'm Darren Ricks [unclear] bloodlines. Just wanna ask you, how does the future look for us as First Nations people and the treaty process that my elders have been talking about in Victoria? 

Thomas Mayo: Yeah, thanks for the question, brother. I think it's gonna be a difficult road ahead for treaty. It was always going to be, and I believe that a voice would've helped us to achieve it. I think the same disinformation campaign is gonna be rolled out against treaty, especially when the negotiations really begin and it's all the more reason for us to continue to have these conversations with people around us to help them to understand, to somewhat prepare them for those lies that are gonna come their way. We are the only ones that can do that. And when I say we, I don't mean just Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. It's gonna need to be we, all of our friends that we live with. Thanks.  

But I do believe, again, the future is bright. The future's bright because we always turn those nos into yeses and you know, that's what we can see from our history if we have a look at everything that we've achieved. And that's why I read that first part. It's not all deficit stuff, it's not all doom and gloom. We stand up and we fight and we've got lots of friends, over 6 million friends, we know that now. And we're gonna win. Thanks.  

Well, I think as requested, I'll finish with the Uluru Statement. I better make sure I got in front of me. It's been a while.  

We gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention coming from all points of the southern sky to ake this statement from the heart. Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did according to the reckoning of our culture from the creation according to the common law from time immemorial and according to science, more than 60,000 years ago. This sovereignty is a spiritual notion. The ancestral tie between the land or mother nature and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil or better of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished and it coexists with the sovereignty of the crown. How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years? With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia's nationhood. Proportionately, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future. These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness. We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country. We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda, the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination. We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history. In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future.  

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.